Higher Consciousness, Ascended Mastery & Liberation with Kim Michaels

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Kim Michaels, thank you for joining me. [00:00:02] Speaker B: Yeah, thank you for having me, for sure. [00:00:06] Speaker A: So, yeah. Would you be able to give us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Exactly. I know we've already talked, but for anybody that's new joining us, if you could give a quick introduction, that'd be great. [00:00:18] Speaker B: Yeah. I am a writer. I'm. I guess you could say a spiritual teacher, even though I don't really use that name about myself. But I've been doing this since 2002. I've been. My main activity in life has been to write books about spiritual topics and put on conferences. And now for the last couple of years, I've done a lot of YouTube videos as well, so. [00:00:43] Speaker A: Awesome. And you've wrote over 70 books, right? [00:00:46] Speaker B: Yeah, over 80, actually. Yeah. [00:00:48] Speaker A: That's extremely impressive. [00:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah, but I mean, it's working full time since 2002, so it's a lot. [00:00:56] Speaker A: Of time there still, though, That's. [00:00:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it is. It takes a certain concentration and focus, that's for sure. I've also done. Now, in the last two years, I've done 850 YouTube videos. So. [00:01:10] Speaker A: To me, that's devotion. That's dedication. That is. I mean, it's honestly inspiring. I'm not trying to flatter you too early here, but seriously, that's cool. [00:01:22] Speaker B: No, but for me, it's just being who I am. I mean, I mean, it started differently, you know, when I was new at it. It was. I was more focused on myself and how people saw me. But over the years, I've sort of lost that, grown out of that. And now it's. It's just a form of self expression, and I enjoy expressing myself and helping other people. And, you know, a lot of people have been helped by these teachings. So that's a motivation in itself, you know? [00:01:54] Speaker A: Now, do you feel like it's your mission or your duty in a way? [00:01:57] Speaker B: Oh, it's not my duty. No, no, it is part of my mission. I believe that we all, at least those of us who are more aware, we have a life plan that we make before we come into this embodiment. And this is clearly part of my life plan. [00:02:13] Speaker A: So what is the plan? Could you get into that? [00:02:17] Speaker B: Well, it's individual for each one, but it has two main aspects. I mean, one is the. We could say the more personal aspect, what kind of growth you want to have in this lifetime. So let's put it this way. Before you come into embodiment, you are meeting with your spiritual teachers and you have a Broader perspective that you have. Because once we're in embodiment, you know, we are inside at the body, we're inside our minds, so we lose some perspective. But before we come into embodiment, we have a broader perspective. So we look at how is my psychology, what limitations do I have? What, what hang ups do I have that I want to resolve in this coming lifetime? And how can I best put myself in a situation where I can do that, where I can resolve that in my psychology? And then the second part of your life plan is that you have a gift you want to bring to the world. There's something you want to do. You can call it your mission, as you said, but we all have that. And I've met so many people over the 49 years I've been on the spiritual path who have all had some intuitive sense. I mean, why did you start doing these interviews? [00:03:32] Speaker A: Yeah. Following intuition. [00:03:34] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. And that's. We see, I met people over the years who say, oh yeah, well, let me know what my divine plan is so I can do it in every step. But that's not how it works. We get these intuitive insights and we never see our divine plan all at once. We never see the end goal, we just see the next step. And it's the same with you. You must have had some intuition that it was important for you to do this and you started doing it. [00:03:59] Speaker A: Yeah, 100%. And I've just been following that thread ever since. [00:04:03] Speaker B: Yeah. And so many people, you know, you grow up. Most of us have grown up in an anti spiritual society because either we have some formal religion that pretty much denies spirituality because it's all a matter of believing in the doctrines and following the rituals, or we have scientific materialism or atheism that denies anything spiritual. So how come we are spiritual people? You know, it's not like there was an outer force that forced us to be convinced about something, but intuitively we just knew. When we found some spiritual teaching organization, we knew. I got to go into this. [00:04:41] Speaker A: Yeah. That is a question that is maybe unanswerable is why me? Right. That has to come up for you. Why am I a spiritual person? [00:04:52] Speaker B: No, because I mean, to me it's very easy to answer because over many lifetimes you have raised your consciousness. I mean, the way I look at it is, you know, we have, we human beings, we have levels of consciousness we can be at. Right. And we are all moving towards higher levels. Well, some are moving towards lower levels, but those of us who are spiritual, we're moving towards higher and higher levels of consciousness. And the. You might say the ultimate is that there comes a level of consciousness where we no longer have to embody. Re. Embody on Earth. We can ascend from Earth. We have sort of passed a final exam in schoolroom Earth. [00:05:31] Speaker A: Yeah. So that thread that I spoke on isn't just a thread that is in this incarnation of Gary. It's a thread that we followed many, many lifetimes. [00:05:40] Speaker B: I think so. Yeah. For most spiritual people, definitely. [00:05:44] Speaker A: I think so, too. [00:05:45] Speaker B: So it's like you can look at humankind, right. And you can see most of the people I grew up with, they're good people, but they don't have any spiritual interest. But for us who are spiritual people, and I met tens of thousands of spiritual people, there came a point, probably in a past lifetime, where we switched and we simply realized there has to be more to life than. Than just the material. And then we started looking for that, and we found something that took us a little further, and that has gradually led up to the point we're at in this lifetime. I believe there are really many spiritual people right now who are in embodiment now because they want to help bring the Earth to a higher stage. You might call it a spiritual golden age. And many have chosen to embody precisely at that time because there is that potential to step up from the age of Pisces to the age of Aquarius and a whole new approach to spirituality. [00:06:47] Speaker A: Yeah, I agree. And I think it's also because of the technology that we have at our disposal. Right. So it's like this is the lifetime. I feel like we talked about this actually in our last conversation. [00:06:57] Speaker B: That could be. [00:06:58] Speaker A: This is the lifetime to, I guess, culminate all of those past lifetimes to almost. So to culminate yours, but also to bring others along or at least offer to bring others along. Yeah, yeah. [00:07:14] Speaker B: So you could say that as your life plan, that part of it is your own spiritual growth and part of it is how you can help others. And, you know, science has pretty much proven we all connected. So there is one mind on Earth, a collective mind. And when you raise your individual consciousness, you're pulling up on a whole, making it easier for others to find a spiritual path. And I have found that that really resonates with an awful lot of spiritual people. You know, most spiritual people I met, it resonates with. And we are here to help raise the whole. [00:07:47] Speaker A: Yeah, right. To help yourself and then at the same time, help others. It's a win. Win. [00:07:54] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:07:57] Speaker A: Now, as we Follow that thread, that thread of liberation, we could say. At the end of it, is it us not incarnating on Earth anymore? [00:08:11] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the potential. So in the teachings that I have brought forth, the purpose of the entire world of form is our growth in consciousness. And Earth is just one among billions of planets with intelligent life. And Earth is actually one of the lower ones. It's sort of the school of hard knocks. But many of us have volunteered to incarnate here to help raise the Earth, even though we didn't have to. Karmically. [00:08:45] Speaker A: Yeah, why did we do that? [00:08:51] Speaker B: Well, you could say because we were dumb enough to volunteer. But no, I mean what I'm talking about, and I talk about this in several of my YouTube videos also. In fact, I have a whole playlist about this that some of us came from what I call natural planets. And natural planets are planets where you don't have the warfare, torture, crime, murder and mayhem you have on Earth because the people there have not gone into what I call separation and duality, meaning the lower state of consciousness. This is what the Buddha called suffering or Maya and illusion. The Sea of Samsara. Jesus called it the death consciousness. And so on a natural planet, people haven't gone into that, but some of us had come to a point that we had grown as much as we felt we could grow on a natural planet. And then we became aware that there's unnatural planets and we became aware that the Ascended masters had a plan for planet Earth and that this required some of us to incarnate here to help hold the balance for the growth of the planet. I talk more about this in a video I have that's called how the World Was Created. And it's an hour long video, so it goes into a lot more detail. [00:10:13] Speaker A: It seems just like a grand sacrifice. [00:10:16] Speaker B: Yeah, but I don't think we looked at it that way. I think we looked at it as a growth opportunity because, you know, part of how we learn or part of how we. It's not really a matter of learning because it's not a matter of understanding intellectually. It's a matter of shifting our consciences upwards. But part of how we shift our consciousness is experience. So we need to have a certain number of experiences. And you can have experiences on Earth that you couldn't have on a natural planet. So I think most of us decided that why not have that experience also because you can actually ascend from a natural planet, but you don't have quite the full perspective that you can have by ascending from an unnatural planet. [00:11:03] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like on Earth or an unnatural planet, there is great opportunity to ascend, but also descend. Right? [00:11:14] Speaker B: Yeah. On an unnatural. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:11:18] Speaker A: That's what I'm saying. Like Earth is like a special forces training school. [00:11:21] Speaker B: Well, you could say that. You know, the whole purpose is, I said our growth in consciousness, but we grow by making choices with our free will. And we have basically two basic categories of choices. Because we start out seeing ourselves as connected beings. We're connected to something, we don't know exactly what. It's actually a higher self, but we don't have clear vision of it. So we can either expand that connection or we can go into what I call separation. And so those are the two. You can see yourself as a connected being or a separate being. And it's different ways you exercise your free will. Because in connection you're. You're seeking to raise the whole. You're not harming. You can't harm anybody really. But when you go into separation, you think you're a separate being. You can do something that harms other people. You can act in ways that you don't consider the consequences for others. And this can then go from a mild selfishness to the extreme selfishness you see on Earth with some of the, like dictators, serial killers and those kind of things, people. And so that it's kind of like by incarnating on Earth, we got a firsthand experience of what happens when an entire planet is caught in this separate state of consciousness. [00:12:41] Speaker A: Yeah, I see. Yeah. Yeah, that's the school of hard knocks. [00:12:45] Speaker B: Yeah, but it doesn't have to be so hard knocks for us. But just by experiencing what is going on on the planet, we have opportunities to raise our consciousness. [00:12:58] Speaker A: And you're saying it comes down to just quite simply making the choice from the perspective of connection, of unity at all times, at all moments, as much as possible, to see us as a unified species. [00:13:13] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you know, you can have these theories out there. You know, the problem of evil that they always talk about. Philosophers, they talked about it for centuries. You know, why did God allow evil if God is good and if God is almighty, why hasn't he eradicated evil? But the reason for this is, again, as I said, our growth in consciousness. And we only grow by being allowed to exercise our free will. And you could say that the overall purpose of this is that we exercise our free will until we can make this fully conscious decision to give up using our free will as separate beings. There has to be a fully Conscious decision. We understand what separation and duality is, and we say, I don't want to do this. I've had enough of this. I've just had enough of it. And then we choose to let go of that way of exercising our free will. And that's when we can walk the spiritual path and eventually ascend. Because people in this beings in the spiritual realm, what I call ascended masters, they have made that choice. They have said, I'll no longer exercise my free will as a separate being. I want to work for raising the whole. [00:14:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:14:29] Speaker B: And so back to your connection idea. Why did God allow evil? Because God saw that we need to grow by being allowed to exercise our free will. But in order to make sure that we can go into this state of seeing ourselves as separate beings and come back out again. Everything is created out of what you can call the one mind or the Christ mind. So you have the Gospel of John where it says, without him was not anything made that was made that refers to that one mind. This shouldn't really be him, but without it. And so. So that means that when we see ourselves as connected beings, we have some connection to this one mind. And therefore we have an intuitive sense of what harms the whole or what raises the whole. And there are certainly things we wouldn't dream of doing. You wouldn't deliberately hurt other people when you have a connection. And so it's just a matter of simply when we walk the path, we become more and more connected to that one mind. We have more and more of an intuitive sense. It's like we have a frame of reference. But when you go into separation, you lose that frame of reference. And so now you are creating a sense of reality in your own mind and you have nothing to compare to. That's why people can get completely lost in creating these belief systems on Earth, ideologies, mental images. And people believe this is the way it is, this is the ultimate truth. But it's all created out of separation. So. So it has no connection to reality. [00:16:08] Speaker A: Yeah. What came up for me is order versus chaos. So if you're in this separate mentality, it's just chaos. There's nothing. There's just nothing makes sense. But when you do link up to the one mind, it is orderly in a sense. It just makes sense, actually, you know. [00:16:28] Speaker B: Yeah, It's a good way to look at it. Yeah. I mean, there's sort of a safety mechanism built in. Science have. Actually, scientists have discovered it's called the second law of thermodynamics. And what the second law says is that a closed system will self destruct. And when people go into separation, their minds become closed systems because they don't have a connection to the one mind. So they think they are creating world communism. It's reality. That's how the world works. Right. Or Christianity or whatever. And what happens is that things will actually begin to break down when people are in this state of mind. An entire civilization can break down. That's why it was necessary for us to incarnate on Earth, to prevent the earth from some self destructing, because the minds of the people had become closed systems. So there's one giant closed system. So when you cut yourself off from this, whatever you do will create chaos, like you said. And it comes to a point where it's just unbearable. You can't stand it anymore. Because in a sense, you could say that in order to deny the connection, it takes mental effort. And it takes more and more mental effort until your mind simply can't handle it, become such a stress. [00:17:55] Speaker A: Yeah, that's funny, because one would think that the spiritual path per se takes a lot of effort, right. When we're just trying to survive, put food on the table, pay the bills, yada yada. It's like, I don't got time for meditation, the spiritual path. But it's actually quite the contrary. It's almost effortless. When you get linked up to the one mind, there is a sort of flow state that comes along with that. Intuitive living. [00:18:20] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, but usually that comes after a while. See, the way I explain it is that there are these levels of consciousness, right? So there's a certain level where you go into separation. If you go below that level, you go into separation. But then it's actually, well, we might as well put numbers on it. There are 144 possible levels of consciousness on Earth. And the 48th level, when you go below that, you go into separation. But then there's from the 48th to the 96th level. And when you are walking those levels, you have to pull yourself above the collective consciousness because it's going to. The collective consciousness is going to pull you into doing what everybody else is doing. And the people you grew up with are probably not meditating or being spiritual. So they want you to be just a regular guy and get married and have kids and do the whatever, get a job and a career and this and that. You know, stop talking to all these weird people. And so it actually takes some effort there. And I remember this. I was going through that phase. I'm not saying I started at the 48th necessarily, but I remember it required a certain determination and effort and certain amount of spiritual practice to get up to a certain level. And then after that, when I got more connected, it became effortless. [00:19:43] Speaker A: I see. That makes a lot of sense. [00:19:46] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:47] Speaker A: Now, what do these levels of consciousness correspond with? Are they emotional states? Like, you don't have to describe all 144, obviously. [00:19:54] Speaker B: No, no. Well, it's like you could say that for each level of consciousness, there's a certain illusion. You know, it's really different levels of your mind. I mean, the mind has three main levels. The emotional, the mental, and the identity level. So the deepest level is your sense of identity. And you could say that in order to take embodiment, this is a very dense planet. An unnatural planet is much denser than a natural planet. So in order to take embodiment here, we start at the 144th level, where we are completely neutral. And then we take on an illusion, a certain belief about matter, that matter is real or matter has a certain solidity. And we gradually take on more and more illusions until we reach the 48th level. And at that point, we see ourselves as human beings and a human body. We have a vague sense of being connected to something outside our own minds, but we don't know what it is. And so you could say that the spiritual path is about raising up through these levels of consciousness, where we gradually let go of these illusions. See, you could look at it this way, that we are created as spiritual beings. But when we take embodiment, we take embodiment in a world of form. And for a time, we just have to experience that world. We just have to get to different experiences. You can have, for example, on Earth. But after a time, when we become open to the path to higher levels of consciousness, what we're actually doing, we are overcoming our identification with form and realizing that even though we have embodied in this world of form, we're not bound by form, we're not defined by it. My body doesn't define me. So you could say that the first stage of the spiritual path, which many people will probably recognize, is you begin to realize I'm more than the body. That's why you, for example, come open to reincarnation. Because you realize this doesn't make sense, that me, the complicated being that I am, disappear when the body dies. What sense does that make? You know? And then as you go higher on the spiritual path, you first, you realize I'm actually more than my emotions. I can choose my emotions, and then you realize I'm more than my thoughts. There's a phase there where you stop identifying yourself with the thoughts as many Eastern yogis describe, for example, that you may still may have thoughts because the monkey mind and this, but you're not identified with it. It doesn't bother you. But then there comes that point where you start questioning your identity. Am I a man, for example? I'm in a male body, but does that mean that I'm a male being? Or am I just an androgynous spiritual being who just in this lifetime is in a male body? And in past lifetimes I've been in female bodies as well. And then you can say my culture, my nationality, all this identity that's put on you. It's like I said, from the collective consciousness. When we grow up, even over many lifetimes, there's this sense of identity projected at us. This is how you're supposed to be when you're a human being on Earth. And then as you raise your level of consciousness to higher levels, you, you stop identifying with it, you question it. You realize, I'm more than this, I'm a spiritual being. Why should I feel bound by this? And for a time, it's almost schizophrenic, because you still have to function in everyday life. And you might have children and you have responsibilities and you have jobs, but at the same time, you can't identify with it anymore. It doesn't define you anymore. It doesn't mean the same that it used to me. But you eventually, you work through that, so you make peace with it. [00:24:00] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the thing, right, is there's a sort of simultaneousness to it as we ascend the ladder. It's not like the illusion disappears, but the illusion becomes less dense, less heavy. [00:24:13] Speaker B: Right. [00:24:13] Speaker A: There's more levity. [00:24:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Some illusions, I think, do disappear, but we are still in a physical body. So that's why there has to be in order to even hold on to a physical body, because I've had out of body experiences and many spiritual people have. So, you know, you can actually leave the body and you're still conscious and aware. But so in order to hold on to a physical body, you have to have a certain balance there where you realize, yeah, but I'm in the physical body and there's a reason why I'm in the physical body. That's to have experiences and to do something. Like I said, your life plan. [00:24:51] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:24:52] Speaker B: So I, for example, just a silly example, but I'm Not a vegetarian. Even though many spiritual people I have met over the years think, oh, that's the highest level, is to be a vegetarian. But I simply feel if I don't eat meat, I can't hold on to my physical body. It's too easy for me to pop out of my body. And that's not why I'm in the body. I'm not in my body to have an out of body experience. I'm in my body to have an in the body experience. [00:25:19] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really good. [00:25:23] Speaker B: Yeah, Yeah. A lot of people, and myself included, when I was younger, you know, you dream about having these peak experiences. And there are people who, for at least for a time, as long as they can stand it, they are constantly chasing these peak experiences. And they do whatever. Ayahuasca or mushrooms or meditation retreats and fasting and all kinds, like the more extreme the better. But as you rise to higher levels, you become much more balanced and you realize you don't need all this. [00:25:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I've been there. [00:25:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:25:57] Speaker A: Do you think that extremeness is needed to get past the 48th level, though? [00:26:02] Speaker B: As I said, between the 48th and the 96th, we have to pull ourselves above the collective consciousness and whatever we have to do individually to do that. I mean, many people, spiritually, myself included when I was younger, we think we have to do something really extreme, and we probably do for a while. But it should be a phase where there comes a point where we realize that what it's really all about is finding balance, where you just become more and more centered, more and more balanced. You don't have to go to these extremes. It's almost like you could say that when we first find a spiritual path, we have a tendency. We want to get away from something. The physical body, our own psychology, the world with all its problems. But as we go higher and get more connected, we realize, I don't really want to get away from earth. I just want to get closer to spirit, to the one mind, as I said, which is really your higher self. But of course, there comes a point where you realize that it's not about acquiring knowledge about spiritual topics. It's necessary to study spiritual teachings. It's good, but you're not going to get into the spiritual realm by understanding. You're going to get into the spiritual realm by integrating with your own higher self, which exists right now in the spiritual realm. And that's ultimately what you're connected to. And so there simply comes a point where, as I said, your sense of identity as A being on earth gradually falls away and you shift more and more to being identified with your higher self. And when you ascend, it's just sort of a small step of fully letting go of any earthly identity and fully uniting with the identity of the higher self. [00:27:55] Speaker A: So is it. As we ascend the levels of consciousness, it's more so inclined toward integration of insight with the body rather than, you know, dispelling the body. It's almost like the body becomes the servant, you know, it's like we. We use the body almost like as a tool or we're being used by some force by the one mind. Like the body is surrendered to that one mind. So it's not like an escape, it's more of an embrace. [00:28:27] Speaker B: Yeah, it is because you realize that you need the physical body to express yourself in the physical world. And understand in the beginning, many of us, including myself, you know, we feel like, oh, I just want to get away from the body. It's so difficult and all these problems. But when you start, stop, when you no longer identify yourself with the body, it doesn't limit you anymore. Then you're realizing, as I said, I'm not in the body to have an out of body experience. I'm in the body to do what I can only do with a physical body. And then you make peace with it. You say, oh, this is the way it is, you know, this is the way I look. I happen to be extremely good looking in this embodiment, but not everybody, not. [00:29:11] Speaker A: Everybody is as good looking as you, Kim. [00:29:16] Speaker B: There's a cross I have to bear, you know? [00:29:19] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Oh, man. Oh, that threw me off. I was gonna ask something. That's funny. [00:29:26] Speaker B: Let me come back to you. [00:29:28] Speaker A: Yeah, hold on a second. Let me take a second here. Take a breath. I don't know. It's gone now. [00:29:37] Speaker B: I'm so good looking. You took your breath away. [00:29:39] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Well, this is a good talk. It makes a lot of sense. Yeah. Damn. Hold on a second here. Okay, so we were on. What was the last line before the good looking thing that you said? Maybe that's how we'll get. I don't remember either, man. Well, this makes a lot of sense to me. Oh, I know what I was gonna say. It's almost. I like to look at it where the integration is like the body goes from a prison. We're confined by this, the suffering of the body, the ailments of the body that come along with the human experience to a temple, right? And it's a very. It's a subtle switch. But that subtle switch is very powerful. And that's how I feel about my body now is. It's like before I was like, oh, why is this happening to me? Like, I felt like the victim. Right. And it goes from the victim orientation to the hero orientation. The hero's journey is like using the body, as we said, as trajectory and a catalyst to be able to ascend. [00:30:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And you know what I said earlier about between the 48th and 96 level, we have to pull ourselves above the collective consciousness. And part of that as spiritual people. You look at how certain religions and even certain spiritual teachings have looked at the body, as you say, as a prisoner, as an enemy of our spiritual growth. You have Christianity where, you know, the extreme is self flagellation. They're whipping themselves or fasting or punishing, because they're basically punishing the body. [00:31:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:31:23] Speaker B: And then you have the whole Eastern tradition where the body is the enemy and you have to discipline the body or neglect the body. And. And, you know, and it's just. To me, it's kind of like the best way to understand this, I think, is in terms of duality. Because the duality, consciousness always has two opposite polarities. So the one opposite. The one polarity of the duality is that people are totally identified with their physical bodies and they're totally focused on the. The needs of the body, the desires of the body, sex, whatever, riches, immortality, whatever. And then the opposite extreme, as you see the body as a hindrance to your growth and you're trying to punish it or take control over it or starve it or whatever. And. And gradually you find some balance where you say, but the body is my vehicle. You could also say your temple. Yeah. In a sense, you could also say what happens as you shift your identity towards seeing yourself as a spiritual being? You are integrating with the one mind, and the one mind is in everything. So there comes a point where we begin to see that everything in the matter world is made out of the one mind. So how can it be an enemy of your spiritual codes? [00:32:48] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:32:50] Speaker B: Mm. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Yeah, very true. I'm only finding this out very recently. [00:32:59] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:32:59] Speaker A: In my life, you know, but that's. [00:33:01] Speaker B: How it goes on the path. You know, you have to. You have to walk the path with what you can see. And. And this is really one of the most important experiences that I've come to myself. I wish all people who are new to the spiritual path could realize this. The spiritual path has stages, and that means that when we first find a Spiritual path. We have a limited view of it, a limited understanding of it. But so many people, they find a spiritual path, and then, for example, they find a spiritual guru who claims he's reached some ultimate level of consciousness. And if you believe this, then where do you go from there? You're stuck. You can't reach higher than what you think is the ultimate. But you need to ask yourself, if I'm not at the highest level of consciousness when I found that guru, that probably means that he can only help me get to a certain level of the path, and then I need to find something else. So what I'm saying is we are all going to have this, that, you know, we follow the spiritual path as we can see it, and then suddenly there's a shift, and now a whole new dimension opens up. I've had this happen so many times. But I see people who get stuck because they think, oh, now I reached some ultimate stage. And then they're not open, even though, you know, spirit may be tapping them on the shoulder and saying, there's more. Look, look, look. But no, no, no, this is it. I found the ultimate. [00:34:37] Speaker A: Yeah, that's just another trick of the ego. [00:34:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it is. Because the ego wants ultimate security. And one way is this. I have now found the highest spiritual teaching. Or as you see, some people, I reached the highest level of consciousness. Yeah, I mean, it's a trap. The moment people say this, you know, they. They're disconnected from the Christ mind or the one mind. [00:35:02] Speaker A: Yeah. If somebody claims they are enlightened, they are the enlightened being, then it's kind of like, to me personally, I'm like, you sure about that, man? [00:35:11] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that's a very good intuition, because would an enlightened being ever say, I'm enlightened? [00:35:19] Speaker A: No. No, Exactly. [00:35:21] Speaker B: And I'll actually tell you why. Because I. What did I say earlier? I said, when we go into separation, we are disconnected from reality, but we are creating a sense of reality in our own minds. And we do this by labeling everything. Everything has to be labeled in a way that the outer mind can grasp the linear intellectual mind can grasp. So it always has to compare everything. And that's why even the concept of enlightenment can become a label. But real enlightenment is when you transcend the level of consciousness where you need to label everything. So if you say, I'm enlightened, well, you're still in that consciousness. You're still finding it necessary to label yourself and to set yourself up in comparison to other people. That's not the one mind. [00:36:17] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:36:19] Speaker B: Because when you start integrating with the one mind, you see the one mind in others. And you're saying, I don't need to set myself up as being superior to others. I want to help raise everybody. [00:36:33] Speaker A: Yeah, Very true. I think the same thing too. It's like, would a true master have to go around and claim he's a master? It's apparent. You don't have to claim you're enlightened. Yeah, right. And you don't even care anyway. At that point, I feel like if you're, like, truly a master, if you're truly, like, legit, it doesn't matter what people call you if they think you're enlightened or not enlightened. [00:37:02] Speaker B: No, no. You don't care about how other people look at you. [00:37:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:37:07] Speaker B: The other thing you could say is that, you know, everybody, we are all looking through the filter of our current level of consciousness, you know, and so there is a certain level where people might need to have a guru and they might need to feel that that guru has some authority and that's why he can help them. I'm not denouncing that, but I'm just saying that if you really have reached a high level of consciousness, you realize that people will look through their level of consciousness. So there's no point in trying to convince them of anything that they can't actually see. Because an enlightened person, most people wouldn't recognize him. If the Buddha had walked down fifth Avenue in New York, most people wouldn't have recognized him whatsoever. I mean, it might have looked if he was wearing this orange robe, but still, in New York, who would even have noticed? So. So most people couldn't see it. So why try to convince them of something they can't see? [00:38:10] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:38:11] Speaker B: That's like you want to set yourself up by putting this label on yourself. [00:38:16] Speaker A: Mm hmm. I feel like the best teachers are the ones that don't even claim they're teachers. [00:38:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Because the way I look at myself is I have some experience with the spiritual path. I have been walking the spiritual path for 49 years, and I have, you know, it's been the center of my life for that time. So I can share that with others. And so I'm just sharing my experiences, my insights, and if it helps others, fine. But to try to convince people that if you believe what I'm saying, it wouldn't even occur to me. What good would it do me or them that I convinced him of something? [00:39:02] Speaker A: Yeah, well, that's where it gets tricky, Right. Because then the enlightened master, the guru, what good would it do for them? It's usually associated with their wallet. It's usually associated with some kind of personal gain. And that's where it gets really, really tricky and gets dirty, you know? [00:39:20] Speaker B: Yes. And the unfortunate aspect of that is that that can turn people off completely to a spiritual path. [00:39:28] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:28] Speaker B: And that's something I really. You know, it's not really strong because what can I do about it? But I would like, if I had a wish, you know, it would be that people wouldn't be turned off to the spiritual path by a false guru. Because the spiritual path is real. It totally is real. And there are many people that have walked it. There are many people that have said, have been teachers, genuine teachers, you know, different levels of consciousness, but they're still genuine teachers because they're sincerely trying to help others. And, you know, then there are some charlatans that look at it. They either want money or they want power over other people, or they want sex. I talked to a guy one time who said that. Yeah. Spiritual movements, they're either destroyed by money, power, or sex or all three. And there's something to it, you know, because that's what some of these people want. And so, unfortunately, when people become victims of that, they can say, oh, the whole thing must be a hoax. [00:40:32] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:40:33] Speaker B: I mean, my family, when I was 18 years old and I started meditating, their response was, they're just out to get your money. [00:40:42] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, that's some karma. That's some bad karma. If you're doing that, good luck in your next lifetime. [00:40:49] Speaker B: Yeah. And I. And I mean, I. I've seen spiritual people or spiritual teachers who are not necessarily perfect human beings. Right. They had a certain psychology, okay. But they were at least genuine because they believed in what they were doing and they believed in the law of karma. But if you're trying to cheat people out of their money or it is. Or submitting to you out of power, you apparently don't believe in the law of karma. [00:41:16] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:41:17] Speaker B: Because what greater karma could you make than taking advantage of people and destroying their spiritual growth for the rest of this lifetime? [00:41:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Especially in something so sanctified as spirituality. That's dark, man. [00:41:37] Speaker B: And this is also why people get disappointed by it. Because we all come into a spiritual movement with this innocent sense that here we shouldn't be exposed to what we're exposed to in the world. And then when we are, we get very, very disappointed. I've experienced it myself, but I've also seen it many other people, but I actually came to the conclusion myself. That is because I had a naive expectation. Because I remember coming to my second spiritual movement was called the Summit Lighthouse and had a headquarters in Montana, on a ranch in Montana. I came there and I was very overwhelmed. There were hundreds of people there, and it was very overwhelming. And after a few days, I realized, wait a minute. When I entered the gate, there wasn't a big trash can saying, leave your ego here. So I didn't leave my ego, and probably everybody else didn't either. So is it any wonder that human psychology has to outplay itself in spiritual movements? I mean, it's simply not realistic to expect that everybody becomes perfect human beings when we become member of a spiritual movement. And the conclusion I came to, which has followed me ever since, is I cannot allow anything on Earth to stand between me and my connection to my higher self and my spiritual teachers. That's really part of maturing on the spiritual path that you come to that conclusion. You know, you can't allow anything on Earth to. And if you have done it, then you just need to look at it and overcome that and get back to saying, no. The most important thing is my spiritual growth. And whatever I experienced, it was just an experience that I needed to have as part of my individual life plan. Because I. I look back, you know, there was a point I. My first spiritual movement, tr. Then meditation, there was point I got dissatisfied with it and got very disappointed. And I felt, why did I go into that? Why was I fooled into that? And I actually felt my intuition had fooled me because my intuition clear told me I should join this movement. But now I realize it was because it was part of my divine plan or my life plan that I needed to have that experience. It was part of my growth. So I totally made peace with it and totally forgiven myself and other people, you know. [00:44:00] Speaker A: To show you what you don't need. [00:44:02] Speaker B: Yeah. Or show me what. What it was in my psychology that caused me to react to other people the way I did. [00:44:08] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. That's why I like to say even the bad teachers can be teachers. Not necessarily in what they're teaching, but just by the example they set of who not to follow or how not to be. [00:44:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And in a sense, you. You could say, you know, I. The way I like to think of is you cannot actually make a mistake on the spiritual path if you just realize that everything is an opportunity to learn something and shift your consciousness up. Because even if you're exposed To a false teacher, you could say, there must be a reason why I defined in my life plan that I needed to be exposed to that teacher. What was it I was meant to learn here and clarify. And then once you learn the lesson, it wasn't a mistake. It was worth it because you probably couldn't have learned the lesson any other way. [00:45:00] Speaker A: Powerful. Yeah. That's good. I think that comes along with that flow state that I mentioned earlier, is that bobbing and weaving with the lessons. You know, you're kind of like seeing things that might not necessarily at a surface level before you, but it's like, can you process and see the lesson in there at a deeper level? That's the flow. [00:45:21] Speaker B: Yeah. That's very good. Yeah. Because, you know, you could. You could say again, with your life plan, you know, you defined a level that you thought was realistic for you to reach in this lifetime. Whether that's the ascension or some lower state doesn't matter. But that was what you define as realistic. And you need to be, first of all, loyal to that inner process of your growth. And all the outer things, outer organizations, teachers, other people, they are just things that help you along if you use them. But the thing is, this requires us. And maybe that's actually what many people overlook. That I've seen over the years is in the beginning, we have a certain, you know, honeymoon period with a spiritual path. We think everything is just wonderful. And then there comes a point where we have to make a switch, where we have to say, what is the spiritual path all about? Is it me having peak experiences or being exposed to this wonderful teacher who can somehow give me samadhi or whatever? Or is it that I actually start looking at myself, my own psychology, and saying, what is it in me that's blocking my spiritual growth? What is it in me that blocks my identification with my higher self and causes me to identify with something down here in the physical? And if you can make that shift, as I said, you can't make any mistakes because anything that happened to you can be turned into a shift in consciousness. [00:46:56] Speaker A: Yeah. That's the cliche that I'm pretty sure you've heard or anybody has heard, Life starts to go, why is this happening to me? To how is this happening for me or through me? That's a big switch. [00:47:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I never heard that, actually. [00:47:13] Speaker A: Really surprised. [00:47:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:47:15] Speaker A: It goes from what was me? To empowerment. Really? [00:47:20] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:47:20] Speaker A: Empowerment. Yeah. [00:47:22] Speaker B: Yeah. You need to look at everything as an opportunity. [00:47:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:28] Speaker B: And it really is an opportunity to see something in yourself that is causing you to react. [00:47:35] Speaker A: Oh, I see. Yeah. [00:47:37] Speaker B: I can't remember the opportunity. Yeah, sorry, yeah. I can't remember if I said this in the last talk. I may have, but the inspiring image for me has always been the Buddha is sitting under this bow tree. He's ready to go into nirvana. But before he can do it, he must allow the demons of Mara, the forces of this world, to attempt to tempt him. And what I realized at one point was they were just trying to get him to react to anything in this world. And in order to not react, he had to have no. What he called attachments. And attachments are these hang ups in our psychology that it can be a pattern that causes us to always be angry. Like you have to, saying somebody's pushing your buttons. But it can also be an identification with something on earth that you think, oh, this defines me somehow. It's so important that I get this done. I had a sense for many years that I was here to do something. I had some spiritual work I had to do and I needed to see results of it. And there comes a point, you just have to let it go because that also defines you. You, your sense of self is dependent on other people's reaction. And whether you become famous like Eckhart Tolle or like me, who's published 80 books but not really become famous, you have to come to a point where you're not attached to that. So what I'm saying is we all have our, our attachments and part of our growth is to see them and consciously overcome them. [00:49:12] Speaker A: Yeah. And don't get sucked into the temptations of Mara. [00:49:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Jesus called it the prince of this world cometh and has nothing in me. But it's the same, you know, it's just that the forces of this world are going to try to pull you into identifying with something in this world. And in the beginning, we can't even. I mean, you could have told me that 30 years ago, I wouldn't have been able to understand it. But there comes a point, as you said, when you start locking into the flow, then it can really be helpful to have that image that it's about overcoming these attachments. [00:49:49] Speaker A: Yeah. Same thing with Jesus in his story. And the devil came to him in the wilderness. And you can have all of this. [00:49:58] Speaker B: Yeah. What shall it profit a man that he gains the whole world but loses his soul? [00:50:06] Speaker A: That's it. Yeah. Have you started to see the classical religions in a different way from this spiritual lens, from, you know, your own insight? Do you look at religions differently now, like in terms of Jesus's teachings, Buddhist teachings, Muhammad's teachings, all the traditions of the past that are caught up in dogma. Like, do you actually see the truth in them now? [00:50:31] Speaker B: Well, I see that they all, in a certain way taught this path. And I see that all religions have a mystical aspect. Sufism is the mystical aspect to Islam. There's Christian mystics, there's Buddhist mystics and Hindu mystics, but also all these major religions, they have an outer aspect, you know, that you might say appeals to the masses. As Jesus talked about, you know, it said he taught the masses and other multitudes and parables and he taught his disciples all things. So there are people who are not ready for anything else. But I. So I see that there is a mystical truth behind all religions, but I also see that many of the outer religions are just tools for power and control and that have been completely falsified. I mean, the one I know the best is Christianity, where basically the Catholic Church has perverted all of Jesus's teachings about the inner path because he actually his life demonstrated the inner path we can all follow to a higher state of consciousness. And he was meant to be an example, but they destroyed that from the very beginning with a Nicene Creed. He is the only son of God, the God of very gods, so nobody can emulate him. It's blasphemy to think you can emulate him, but we are all meant to follow his example. [00:52:00] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:01] Speaker B: And you can say there are many people that aren't ready to do that. Yeah. But still, if you look at the Catholic Church, it's one of the biggest mind control machines seen on this planet. [00:52:11] Speaker A: I think it's the biggest. [00:52:12] Speaker B: Yeah, probably because it's certainly the oldest that's still in existence. I mean, it's just everything is about control, controlling people's minds. I didn't grow up in the Catholic Church, so. But I've certainly known many people who did. [00:52:28] Speaker A: Yeah, we've both grown up in Catholic countries and societies. [00:52:32] Speaker B: No, actually I grew up in Denmark, which is not Catholic. It's Lutheran. [00:52:35] Speaker A: Oh, well, Christian, I guess, but Lutheran. [00:52:37] Speaker B: Is almost as perverted as the Catholic Church. And the reason for this is that Luther saw that the Catholics had put certain artificial things in Christianity, like the letters of absolution and saints and this kind of thing. But he didn't go back. And nobody has really gone back and said, what did they take out? And as I said, they completely destroyed Jesus as an example. And that means all Christianity that comes after the Catholic Church, they are Off. They're off the mark, as they say. [00:53:12] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, that's for sure. They're off their rocker. [00:53:16] Speaker B: Yeah. But of the original meaning of sin is off the mark. [00:53:21] Speaker A: I didn't know that. [00:53:22] Speaker B: Yeah, that's the original meaning of the word sin. You're off the mark. And what you're off the mark is, is the connectedness to the Christ mind. You're in separation. [00:53:36] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. It's like ironically, they're creating sinners out of their own. [00:53:41] Speaker B: Oh, yeah, absolutely. And they're keeping. Keeping people tied in this state of consciousness that Jesus called the death consciousness. Because, you know, you just think about it. There's nothing more extreme than American fundamentalist. If you declare Jesus to be your Lord and Savior, somehow there's a contract up there in heaven that when you die, Jesus has to come and save you, even if you haven't changed your state of consciousness at all. I once talked to a person who had grown up in a fundamentalist church. His father had a. He was televangelist. And so he was talking to me about this. So I said, okay, so are you saying that if Hitler on his deathbed had sincerely confessed Christ, then Hitler would have gone to heaven? And he looked at me like I hit him in the head with a hammer, but then he very slowly said Hitler. Well, based on everything I was brought up to believe, I would have to say that's true. But he clearly didn't believe it because it doesn't make any sense. [00:54:34] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:54:36] Speaker B: And so what has been obscured? And this, this is the problem with most religions. Right. But what, what most religions preach is you become a member of our religion, you are baptized, for example, you follow, you believe in our doctrines, you follow our rituals, then you're going to go to heaven. But what Jesus preached and what all the mystic teachers have preached is that the determining factor of whether you go into the spiritual realm or not is your level of consciousness. And as long as your level of consciousness in separation and duality, you can't enter the kingdom, as Jesus said. [00:55:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it's so perverted. It really is. [00:55:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:55:21] Speaker A: They turn Jesus into. [00:55:22] Speaker B: It is, you know, it is completely perverted. Yeah, but you'll find other things. I mean, I've become more aware of Eastern religions after I started studying non duality, because there they have this idea that the ultimate level of spiritual development is that you melt away as an individual. You just disappear. You go back into the undifferentiated Brahman or pure awareness or whatever you call it, whatever they call it, and that's just as perverted because that's not the path either. You are not supposed to return to nothingness. That's not spiritual growth. Yeah, because we were actually created to be co creators with God. And we can only really do that by, as I said, unifying with the one mind. And then we, we can actually grow our sense of awareness all the way to the same level as the Creator who created us. [00:56:29] Speaker A: Would you say though, Eastern philosophy is a little less perverted? [00:56:32] Speaker B: Oh yeah. [00:56:32] Speaker A: Because it actually. Right, because it actually does have an essence of raising one's consciousness. [00:56:37] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And they often have a concept of a path. But it's just that the question is really if you think that the goal of this process is to disappear as an individual. I don't know if that. Yeah, it may be less perverted in a way, but still, I mean, I remember being exposed to this and translated meditation and it was one of the things I absolutely couldn't deal with because I intuitively knew this can't be it. They talked about these Mahanbhataras, cycles of millions of incarnations you go through and all the suffering you go through, and then in the end you reach the highest level of consciousness, you are enlightened, and then you disappear. And that never rang true to me intuitively. [00:57:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I know what you mean. I guess moral of the story is always follow one's intuition. [00:57:32] Speaker B: It is. Because it's the only thing you have that will guide you. [00:57:36] Speaker A: Yeah, truly, because I've been through it too, man. I've been through the whole spiritual gamut. Just. I got a whole list of stuff that I've done to try to. To try to find the truth. But it really always comes down to just my intuition, no matter what, because I always find fault in whatever modality, whatever pursuit it is, whether it's a community, whether it's a certain practice, a certain philosophy, there's always something that's like. Well, I don't think that's it per se. And I think it, if there is a it, it's intuition. Always coming back to intuition and having that lead the way throughout the whole spiritual process. [00:58:12] Speaker B: Well, I, I would say there that when I was younger I had the same thing. I was on this quest to find truth, you know, and. And it was a really hard process for me to realize that that's completely misguided because there is no truth. Know one truth. Truth or the essence of life is self transcendence. And it's like I said earlier, if you think you reach some ultimate state of Consciousness, you're not going to grow beyond that. So truth is continued self transcendence. That is never going to end as long as you're on earth. That's for sure. So. So this is. Again, you said it yourself. You said ego, because the ego wants security. Her ego wants to say, oh, I now found the highest spiritual teaching. I found the highest possible guru. I just. Somebody. [00:59:06] Speaker A: I got it. [00:59:06] Speaker B: Somebody asked me a question on my YouTube channel about a particular guru, and I didn't know him, so I looked him up and he claimed that he was the incarnation of God. [00:59:18] Speaker A: Who is that? You want to name drop? [00:59:20] Speaker B: I don't remember his name anymore because I never heard about him before. But there are several that have claimed that, you know, some of the Eastern gurus, especially this guy, was he grew up in the west. And I can't remember his name because he had like 10 different names throughout his career. So. But actually I can look it up. But anyway, what I'm saying is nothing is ultimate. There is always a higher level of consciousness. That's powerful. I just watched your talk today here with Tim Freak, and he has some really powerful insights in this. With the continual evolution and emergence. And I wouldn't agree with everything he says, but what he was saying, that God is evolving through us. And that's exactly it. I mean, the Creator created our universe, our world of form, but it's also growing. Now, the Creator had a much higher level of consciousness than us when it started, but it's constantly growing because in a sense, you could say the Creator is experiencing its own creation through us. And as it's doing that, it's raising its consciousness. So. And where does this end? I don't think it ends. I don't think there is an end. [01:00:42] Speaker A: It doesn't end. No. It's so profound. Yeah. The journey with no destination. [01:00:51] Speaker B: Yeah. But it's enormously liberating when you give up this quest for the ultimate. [01:00:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:59] Speaker B: And you can just flow like you were talking about. Yeah. Because see, what happens is here you are, you're open to something beyond what you grew up with. You'll find a spiritual teaching, and it is. You're meant to find this in your life plan because it'll raise your consciousness. But now you're deciding this must be the ultimate spiritual teaching, so you may grow for a time. I've seen many people, they come into a spiritual moon and they are growing, but then there comes a point where they stopped growing, because now they're deciding. But I found the ultimate. So now they are More interested in defending what they have than looking for the next step up. And the moment you go into defending what you have, your growth stops. And you are not going to start growing until you open your mind. Could there be more? [01:01:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a very solid tenet, is remain fluid, keep going. [01:02:00] Speaker B: Yeah. Always be open to the next step. Because there is always the next step. [01:02:08] Speaker A: That's the good news. [01:02:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:02:13] Speaker A: It's just that the mind, you know, wants to, as you said, have a foundation of safety, a foundation of. I got it figured out. This is it. [01:02:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:02:21] Speaker A: The ultimate. [01:02:22] Speaker B: But that's because, as I said, the spiritual path has status. So when we find a spiritual path, our ego doesn't just lay down and die. It says, how can I use his spiritual teachings to still keep him trapped in this lower state of consciousness? [01:02:40] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:02:40] Speaker B: And that means the ego now perverts the spiritual path. So it's the quest for the ultimate. And as long as you are on the quest for the ultimate, there are certain things you are not open to see. Basically, you could say whenever you think you found the ultimate, your ego, the prince of this world, the demons of Ma, they've got you. And you can have been on the spiritual path for 49 years like me. And if you think that way, they've got you. You've stopped your growth at a. You may have grown genuinely, but you're stopping at that level. And then you can't ascend because ascending is going to a higher level, fundamentally higher level. And that's why for me, there's a sort of a. For me personally, I'm not saying everybody should accept this, but for me personally, what has really been important for me is to come to directly, intuitively experience the ascended masters. Because the ascended masters, as I see them, they're beings in the spiritual realm, and they have ascended to the spiritual realm, many of them, from Earth, by overcoming this self interest, a sense of separation and wanting to work, raise yourself up compared to others. And when I started having an intuitive experience of their consciousness, it became so obvious that I am not anywhere near an ultimate state of consciousness because their consciousness is so much higher than mine, you know, and it's. That was the way it was 30 years ago. That's the way it is today. Even though I've grown in those 30 years, but I'm still nowhere near that level of consciousness that I have. And that keeps you with a realistic view that there's always another step. Whereas you see gurus who don't recognize. And basically the question Is do you recognize that there's a mind that's greater than your own, or do you think your mind can figure out what's truth by itself? And the only way out of this sense of separation, wanting to glorify the separate self, is to connect to a mind that's greater than your own and acknowledge this, because then you have direct experience and you have a frame of reference. And I'm not saying that all spiritual gurus should recognize Ascended masters, but I'm just saying that there is this. There has to be some kind of mind that's greater than yours, because otherwise you will remain trapped in your own mind trying to figure it out. [01:05:22] Speaker A: That's the hard part when it comes to, I mean, seeing the example of the Ascended Masters. They're disembodied beings. [01:05:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But again, intuitively, you can connect to it. [01:05:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:05:39] Speaker B: And I'm not saying all spiritual people are meant to. It's not that. But for me, that was really the deciding moment on a spiritual path, when I recognized what Ascended Masters are and how they experience their level of consciousness. [01:05:56] Speaker A: So do you just tap into them through, like, incantations or meditation? What does it look like? [01:06:03] Speaker B: Well, from interviewers, it's a very gradual process where I first became open to the idea that they are ascended beings. And that was actually happened many years ago when I read this Life and Teachings of the Masters of the Far East. Have you ever heard of those books, Bear T. Spaulding? Okay, well, it's just some books that describe that in the 1800s, there was a Western expedition that went to the Himalayas. I don't think it ever took place. It's just meant to be a story. But they met some Ascended Masters. They didn't call them that, but they met some Ascended Masters that gave them some teachings. And that intuitively resonated with me that there had to be beings at a higher level of consciousness and what we see on Earth. I just intuitively knew that has to be it. And then I found some other books. But then in 1983, I heard about the Summit Lighthouse, which gave forth Ascended Master teachings that were dictated through the messenger. They had Elizabeth Clare Prophet was her name. And that resonated with me again. So I actually. The first time I really experienced an Ascended Master was I was listening to this was back when we had cassette tapes, you know, a long time ago. Maybe you'd never had a cassette recorder. [01:07:19] Speaker A: Yourself, but I played around with them. [01:07:21] Speaker B: Oh, you did? Okay. [01:07:24] Speaker A: I was in the CD era. [01:07:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what I figured. But anyway, I was listening to a cassette tape. Lisbo prophet, taking a dictation from the ascended master, Mother Mary. And suddenly I just felt her presence in the room. I. I just felt it. It was. I didn't see her physically, but I could feel it. It was like there was that being in this room in Denmark, you know, through the words of this cassette tape. It was just so real, and it was just like one of those before and after experiences. You can never unsee it once you've experienced it. And then I gradually had other experiences, you know, and now since I've started myself taking messages from them, I've had thousands of them. Because every time I take a dictation, I experience the presence of the master. And I don't know, it's just, you know, once you've experienced it, it's like, gosh, this. This is what you really want to connect to, you know, at least for me. [01:08:26] Speaker A: Yeah. So these beings are, like, psychically hooked up to us. [01:08:32] Speaker B: Yeah. I wouldn't say psychically, because psychically sounds like you're going to get a reading somewhere, you know? [01:08:38] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:38] Speaker B: It tells you what's going to happen next week, and you're going to meet this tall, dark stranger that's your ultimate love. But. But I mean, they're. They're connected to us because they are us, See, they are out of the one mind. Everything is created out of one mind. So we are at the lowest level of our world of form, and our level was created by ascended beings in the spiritual realm right above us. And there is a hierarchy of these spiritual beings that are connected to the Creator. And as I said, the Creator started creating everything out of its own being and consciousness. But our world of form was created by the ascended masters in the next level up out of their consciousness. So we are created out of their being. So we are really just connecting to who we are. [01:09:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like. This is like. It's very hard for the mind to fathom that, but it's almost like they're. Because it's not. To me, we call them beings. Right. And when I say. When you say beings, it's like, I see you as a being. You're Kim. But I don't feel like these masters are like that. They're not like another being. It's almost like, as you said, a part of us that we're tapping into, like it's a part of the. It's a. It's like an extension of ourself, right? [01:10:04] Speaker B: Yeah. I would say we are an extension of them. [01:10:07] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [01:10:12] Speaker B: Yeah. I. I think. I. Maybe. I'm not sure I understand it, but what I went through myself was that in the beginning, my outer mind saw them as these beings up there in the spiritual realm that were far removed from me. But when I started experiencing them, the experience was beyond any form. So I can't really say, oh, this is that being. And it looks like that. And it, you know, because they don't have a physical form that can be defined. They sometimes give pictures that you can tune into, but they are much more than the picture. So I. I would say you're on the right track in the sense that you can't take a. An image from Earth and transfer it to them because it's going to block your experience. So. And, you know, think about what you've said about intuition, Gary. What is intuition? [01:11:11] Speaker A: I'd say it's a higher intelligence. [01:11:13] Speaker B: What do you mean with intelligence? [01:11:17] Speaker A: It's another way to process everything that's going on. Like it's a. It's just like another layer of this experience, the subtle layer of this. Of this experience. Am I making sense here? Yeah, it's hard to describe, actually. [01:11:33] Speaker B: Yeah, I think I understand. [01:11:35] Speaker A: It goes beyond words. [01:11:37] Speaker B: I would say it this way. You know how I talked about. We go into this consciousness separation where we want to label everything, right? So what we are so used to, what we are so programmed to do here on Earth is we look at the things here on Earth, right? And then we create some mental image. And now we want to project that on the spiritual realm. You see, for example, the Old Testament God, he's an angry man sitting up there. That's because he was created by angry men running around in the desert in the Middle east thousands of years ago who projected there. They created. You know, Genesis says, let's create man in our own image and likeness. But human beings have created gods after their own image and likeness. And so I would say intuition is when you have a direct experience of something beyond the material world that goes beyond intuition, any kind of mental image you have. And that's why in order to have good intuition, you have to be as neutral as possible. I've seen it in myself. You know, if I have something, if I have a belief that I'm very attached to, I can't get good intuition about it because I want to defend it, what I have in my outer mind. But when I can be completely neutral and step outside of that, that's when you have a spiritual experience. You see, if you study People who describe spiritual experiences, you know, sometimes it happens at the most unexpected moments, like they're in an accident or something happens that really surprises them. And it's like they go out of their body or they see. They see things in a different way. So intuition to me is experiencing something beyond our own outer mind. It's like you are connecting to something outside these levels of the mind, the identity, mental and emotional. To me, that's intuition. And that's why I'm saying an ascended master is in the spiritual realm. We can't really take an image here and project it on them. You have to be as open as possible. I mean, when I work with the masters and get these messages from them, the only thing I have to do is be neutral. I have to go into a neutral state of mind where I'm not having any idea what they should say or what they shouldn't say or how they should say it. I'm still conscious, but I'm neutral. And that's what you have to do to have good intuition. [01:14:18] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. Excuse me. Yeah. I like to say it's almost a precursor to the mind before any projection can come about. [01:14:28] Speaker B: Yeah, it is. [01:14:29] Speaker A: It's a neutral precursor. Yeah. And it is. I mean, sometimes, if you really want to get far out, I like to say it's like your communion with God. [01:14:44] Speaker B: Right. [01:14:45] Speaker A: That is God connecting to you. But, yeah, if you want to stay a little grounded, it is a higher intelligence. That's what I like to say. [01:14:52] Speaker B: Right. [01:14:52] Speaker A: It's an alternative intelligence. [01:14:54] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. Actually, you asked me about this teacher who claimed to be God. I just looked it up. His name was Adi Da Samrai. [01:15:08] Speaker A: Never heard of him. [01:15:09] Speaker B: Okay. Yeah, I hadn't either. So what teachers have you been into? I'm just curious. [01:15:15] Speaker A: A lot. I mean, I like to see my teacher with the person I'm literally sitting with, you know? So I could say I've had hundreds of teachers over the years, but in terms of, like, teachers that I always come back to, number one. I love Ram Dass. He's just so human. He's just very tender. I just love his spirit. Yeah, Ram Dass is number one. There's some other swamis. I do have a list, actually. You want me to give you a list? [01:15:44] Speaker B: That's up to you. Yeah, I just thought it would be interesting to. Instead of me talking, hearing something about yours. [01:15:50] Speaker A: Let me find my. Let me see if I can find the list. If not, then just ignore it. I do have a list of people that are very important this is over the past, though, too. It's like it's evolved. All right, so this is my list. It's 20 people long. Ram Dass Buddha, Alan Watts, Swami Satchitananda Yogananda, and the whole Kriya lineage. Thich Nhat Hanh, Sri Aurobindo, Jesus, Swami Sivananda, Swami Vivekananda, Bhikkhu Buddhadasa, Lao Tzu, Terrence McKenna, Jidu Krishnamurti, Ramana Maharshi Nisagarata Maharaj, Aldous Huxley, Eckhart Tolle, Muji, and Tim Leary. Okay, that's my 20. [01:16:33] Speaker B: That's quite a list. You've been around the block more than I have. [01:16:38] Speaker A: I could say so. But, yeah, that's just almost, like, through phases, though, too. Like, I go through phases with teachers, so I'll have, like, one teacher. I really get into their teachings and then never really listen to them again. It's like I take what I need from them. [01:16:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:16:50] Speaker A: Whatever kind of dharma that they're putting out in that certain time period in my life. And then I'm like, okay, that's exactly. [01:16:56] Speaker B: What I was talking about. You are dedicated to your personal growth, your personal path, and the teachers are just meant to help you to the next level. [01:17:06] Speaker A: Yeah, I think there's also too. I say this a lot, but I'm gonna say it again. There's something about spending actual time with people, with teachers. Like, literally what we're doing right now, there's something about the presence that rubs off that goes beyond knowledge. Quite hard to describe, but from my exploration of, you know, the last four or five years of doing this, I feel like certain people have this energy, a certain transmission that they impart on me, and it hasn't left me. I think that's probably the most powerful practice for all of us. If you can just find people that are a little bit further along and spend time with them. [01:17:47] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:17:50] Speaker A: That's just me personally. [01:17:54] Speaker B: What I would say to that is that that's fine as long as you realize it doesn't come from the teacher. It comes through the teacher, because a valid teacher is a person who has some connection to the one mind. So the one mind can flow through the teacher to you in a way that you couldn't receive yourself at that point. But the goal is that you come to a point where you are connected to the one mind within yourself, and therefore, you can get it directly from your higher self or from your ascended teachers within instead of through an outer teacher. Because otherwise, the outer teacher becomes a crutch if you think that you can only make progress. This is actually, you know, my first biography book was Yogananda's Autobiography of a Yogi. And I loved that book. And for many years I would read it once a year. But it came a point where I thought, oh, I can't read this anymore. Because in the Indian guru tradition, they place so much emphasis on the guru that you can't grow without the guru. And I realized that is there's a limitation there. There comes a point where it has to come from within, and that's your higher self and your ascended teachers because you are actually out of them and you're not out of an embodied teacher. [01:19:21] Speaker A: I like to say that the teacher, actually, as far as they go, is they lead you to you. And if not, as you said, they can be. [01:19:30] Speaker B: A successful teacher is one that you no longer need. Yeah, that's the ultimate success of a teacher. You don't need him anymore. He has made himself superfluous for you because otherwise you become codependent on the teacher. And that's, again, one of those things that stops you at a certain level. [01:19:56] Speaker A: Yeah, the yogis would definitely have a little quarrel with that, that's for sure. They really take seriously the guru disciple relationship. [01:20:03] Speaker B: What's their, what's their, I mean, what are they saying about that? [01:20:08] Speaker A: It's just that, like, the guru imparts the transmission, the Darshan, you know, and they just love their guru, you know, I mean, Ram Dass loved his guru, Yogananda loved his guru. They just. [01:20:20] Speaker B: But where does the Darshan come from? [01:20:24] Speaker A: The guru, which is you're saying, but. [01:20:26] Speaker B: Does he produce it in his mind? [01:20:31] Speaker A: No, but it, it was not produced. But I would say it is. It is. They would say it's needed. [01:20:39] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, but, but that's not what I asked. I asked, where does it come from? Does the guru produce it in his own mind or does it receive. We receive it from a higher source? [01:20:48] Speaker A: Yeah, trust me, I agree with you. I, I 100. I know what you're saying, but it's like a guru, you know, I'm talking, like, I'm talking in the point of view from the, the Indians. [01:20:57] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's what I'm asking. I'm not trying to argue with you. I'm just trying to understand what they are saying. Because to me, they're saying you need. [01:21:07] Speaker A: The guru, but you're saying you don't need the guru, but you need the. [01:21:10] Speaker B: Guru to take you to a certain point where you no longer need the guru. And if he doesn't take you to that point, you become codependent on the guru and then you're stuck. [01:21:21] Speaker A: Yeah, I got what you're saying. [01:21:23] Speaker B: You see, and, and you look at Yogananda who told his story, how he found his guru Yukteswar, and at some point, you know, his guru basically said, now you're ready to go out on your own. [01:21:36] Speaker A: Yeah. So it's like revere the teachers, revere the gurus. But also the second half of the path is to go out on your own, to maybe have your own students be the guru for others. [01:21:49] Speaker B: But I mean, you could, if you say, let's say you say that Jesus and the Buddha were true gurus, right? Yeah. But they're no longer in physical embodiment, so how are you going to spend time with them? How are you going to receive anything from them unless you receive it from within? Because they are now ascended masters, they can still give you a transmission of their being, but not through an outer guru, only through within. Now, I'm not saying there couldn't be a guru who has a certain level of consciousness, he can transmit something to the students. But it's just I would never say this came from me or my mind because Jesus himself, and I consider Jesus to have a considerably higher state of consciousness than me. He said, I can in my own selves do nothing. The Father within me doeth the work. That's the one mind streaming through us. So that's why I'm saying, you know, it's fine to say you need a guru, but there comes a point where you can receive the transmission from the same source that the guru receives it from. If you don't make that switch, then you will always need the guru. But you cannot ascend through somebody else. When you ascend, you're standing there as an individual. There's only you, nobody else. And you have to be completely self sufficient in yourself. You're the one who has to sit under the bow tree and face the demons of Mara. You can't just say, oh, help me, guru. What do you think? How do I avoid this, you know? [01:23:33] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think the gurus go as far as initiation. Right. Like the gurus go as far as like starting you off and then you really have to get started serious with it yourself. [01:23:46] Speaker B: Yeah, that's another switch you have to make, you know, the baptism. You could say that the spiritual path is about taking more and more responsibility for yourself. [01:23:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:23:56] Speaker B: Until you no longer depend on anything outside yourself. [01:24:02] Speaker A: That's good. [01:24:04] Speaker B: You Become spiritually self sufficient. In a sense. You realize I'm not that down here, the outer body, the outer mind. I am that up there, the spiritual self. [01:24:23] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:24:25] Speaker B: And if a guru helps you come to that point, then that's good. But if he makes it seem like you always need him, then he becomes a false guru. So. [01:24:36] Speaker A: Yeah, run the other way. [01:24:38] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:24:41] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very true. It's very true. It's like reverence, but also at the same time, not too much reverence. [01:24:49] Speaker B: Well, reverence, but not dependence. [01:24:52] Speaker A: Yeah, that's it. I like that. [01:24:54] Speaker B: Yeah, because it's again, this, you know, what we really want is the one mind. And the one mind, this is what Jesus was meant to demonstrate. The one mind can stream through a person in a physical embodiment. So a guru can be a genuine guru. And he's the open door for the flow from spirit that takes whatever form it takes in that tradition. I'm not trying to say that there's only one way that spirit can express itself because it expresses itself through all these traditions. But I'm just saying that there comes a point where you need to recognize that it is the one mind. And the one mind is beyond any outer person. It can flow through a person, but it's always more than a person. And like this person I mentioned there who obviously thought he was the incarnation of God, he hadn't gotten that because then you could never even say something. I could never even believe it. [01:25:56] Speaker A: Yeah, well, I mean, there's probably a lot of people that do believe it, unfortunately. [01:26:02] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But that's a certain stage on the path. I don't have a problem with that. Yeah, that may be a phase they need to go through, but I think, you know, part of the reason they need to go through it is that there has been so many of these false gurus on Earth because it's an unnatural planet. There are all kinds of false gurus that have tried to. And their goal is to control people. And what did Jesus demonstrate? He couldn't be controlled. You could kill me, but I'm more than the physical body. I'm just going to be resurrected. And so in order to control us, they have to prevent us from connecting to the one mind. And that's why they create all these false religions to say, oh, you just need to follow this religion or you need to follow this guru. And we have been programmed with this for so long. So I think there are spiritual people who have volunteered in their life plan to take on a false guru or a false teaching. To demonstrate they can rise above it. And that's why I'm saying at some point you have to realize that my whole purpose for this involvement, but to rise above this, not to remain stuck in it forever. [01:27:19] Speaker A: I like that. I never heard Jesus described in that way, is that he demonstrated that nothing can harm him. [01:27:25] Speaker B: Yeah. Nothing on earth defines me. [01:27:29] Speaker A: Yeah, that's good. Nothing on earth defines me. [01:27:33] Speaker B: When you come to that realization fully, that's when you can ascend. [01:27:39] Speaker A: Yeah, that's true power, man. To be, I mean, just like invincible in that way, like Jesus was. [01:27:46] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Or you could say, how do you become invincible? You become completely transparent. That's why Jesus said, the prince of this world comes and has nothing in me. So the prince of this world, demons of Mara, they come and if they have something in you, they can grab hold on because you're attached to it and pull on. Well, you're not free. But if you're completely transparent, there's just nothing there. [01:28:12] Speaker A: Transparent, yeah, I like that. Yeah. There's nothing for the world to grab onto. They couldn't get Jesus. No, no, they couldn't get it. [01:28:22] Speaker B: Same thing with the Buddha, you know, no reaction. [01:28:24] Speaker A: Yeah, that's how I see the sages, the people that I really revere. I'm like, you can't get that guy. No, girl, you can't. You're not going to get them. That's good. [01:28:33] Speaker B: But that's because they've united with their higher selves so much that they know this is who I am. And all of these other things, it's not really who I am. [01:28:43] Speaker A: I feel that, man. I feel that from you, Kim. Not going to get you. [01:28:47] Speaker B: Well, I don't know. We'll see. [01:28:50] Speaker A: Work in progress. [01:28:52] Speaker B: You have to realize this is a one hell of a planet. [01:28:57] Speaker A: Yeah, definitely. Definitely. Interesting times we were born into. [01:29:01] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:29:01] Speaker A: To be able to experience this together, you know, to witness this, the calamity. [01:29:05] Speaker B: But I just think there are millions of spiritual people that are at that point where they are ready to in some way demonstrate this, yourself included. You know, we're not defined by these outer things. Because, I mean, look what you're doing. You are doing all these interviews. I assume there was no guru who told you to do this. [01:29:29] Speaker A: No actual physical. Yeah, guru. No, I mean intuition, as we said. [01:29:34] Speaker B: So it was your intuition. So that's what I'm talking about. Nothing here on earth defines what you are going to do because you tune into it from a higher source. And many, many people I met at that level where they're very close to realizing that. They may not fully have realized it yet, but they are very close to it. [01:29:54] Speaker A: Y. And that's what the powers that be don't want us to tap into. [01:29:59] Speaker B: Yeah. And they especially don't want us to express it. [01:30:03] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:30:04] Speaker B: In a public way. We can tap into it. As long as we sit in a cave in Himalayas and meditate on God, that's not really that much of a threat to him, as least as they can see it. It still raises the consciousness, but. But still they can't really see that. But once we start going out in public expressing ourselves. Yeah. That's when all hell breaks loose, so to speak. They'll do everything they can to discourage you from doing that. [01:30:28] Speaker A: Yeah. If we had this conversation, like, I don't know, 500 years ago, we would have been burnt at the stage. [01:30:34] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. And. And that's why, you know, I've actually met many spiritual people who are. They are really at the point where they could start expressing themselves, but they don't dare to. They can't get themselves to do it. And it's because we have experienced from past lives how we've been persecuted in various ways for speaking out against the powers that be. [01:30:54] Speaker A: Geez. [01:30:54] Speaker B: You know, and you. You think about this. You know, we said earlier, when you first come into contact with a spiritual movement, you think, here you're going to be treated in a better way. And you really should think that you should be able to talk freely about spiritual matters, but you can't. On Earth, if there's something that's a taboo. I mean, sex is easy enough to talk about in today's age, but spirituality, that's still, for many people, a taboo. [01:31:22] Speaker A: Yep. Get shunned by the tribe. [01:31:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Or. Yeah. And the major religions. The major religions will say, gary, never trust your intuition. Trust what the leaders of the church say, otherwise you'll go to hell. You'll be misled by the devil. That's what they'll say. [01:31:42] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:31:42] Speaker B: You know, and it's crazy. So. So you have to be really strong to follow your intuition. And I think there are millions of people in embodiment right now who are very close to that point of breaking through and saying, you know, I'm going to dare to be who I am and I'm going to dare to express it. Come out of the closet, so to speak, as a spiritual person. [01:32:02] Speaker A: I think so. I mean, honestly, this has only happened to me recently, so I'm one of them. [01:32:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly. And many, many more. And it's only when you know, the way you could look at it is when Jesus did it alone, they killed him. But if millions of people do, it can't kill all of us. [01:32:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:32:24] Speaker B: Not that it's, you know, quite as dramatic today, but they are still. There are still countries where you could be killed for speaking out. [01:32:32] Speaker A: Very true. Yeah, very true. And who knows what the future holds? [01:32:35] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:35] Speaker A: Honestly. [01:32:36] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:36] Speaker A: At this rate. [01:32:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:40] Speaker A: But even if they kill us, who cares at this point? You know, it's like we're doing some. We're doing this for a purpose that's way greater than this one life. That's really what it comes down to. It's like living for something more than just this one life. And. [01:32:52] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:32:52] Speaker A: Yeah. That is the invincibility. [01:32:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, it is. I know. And it's again, this. You know, you come to a point where you're just expressing yourself. You're just being who you are. [01:33:04] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:33:04] Speaker B: And that's it. You don't have any particular goal or intention. It's certainly not of convincing other people. You're just sharing. You're sharing of yourself. And that's what's going to help people more than you see. I remember this myself, you know, in transcendental meditation, the Summit Lighthouse. We should go out and be missionaries and convert other people to believe in the teachings. And that is just. I look back at. And I have to laugh at myself, you know, that I could never be so involved with this, you know, because what good does it do you to convince somebody if they're not ready to see it? [01:33:42] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:33:43] Speaker B: This whole thing about believe, believe. What good did belief ever do anybody? If it doesn't shift their consciousness, it doesn't really matter. [01:33:57] Speaker A: Yep. [01:34:01] Speaker B: Can I ask you something? I saw you've done over 300 of these interviews now. [01:34:07] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:34:09] Speaker B: Is there any. You talk to so many people. Like I said, way more than I have spiritual teachers, at least. Is there any kind of observations you made, patterns you see, anything you can share about it? [01:34:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a deep one. I'd have to actually sit with that and. Because there's a lot for sure. But let me see what's off the top of my head. Well, there's a lot of phonies. [01:34:37] Speaker B: Okay. [01:34:38] Speaker A: There's a lot of people that claim that they are ascended to a certain level, transcended, awakened, and they're just putting on a show. That's for sure. I do a lot that I don't upload, so. [01:34:50] Speaker B: Oh, really? [01:34:51] Speaker A: The 300 ones are the ones that like kind of pass the test, per se. I'm like, this person's cool as long as they're well intentioned. That's my rules. Are they well intentioned? Then I'll put it up. But I've crossed paths with a lot of people where I'm like, they got some weird energy. Like my intuition is like this, this is strange. I don't feel as though they're aligned with the one mind. Essentially, like they're doing it for themselves. [01:35:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:35:12] Speaker A: So that's one takeaway is just because somebody sounds good, looks good, has a lot of followers, doesn't mean anything, actually. What else? I mean, on the other side of the coin, there are actually a lot of well intentioned spiritual people in the time that we live in, and it's an honor to be able to sit down with them. So I don't want to be all negative. There are a lot of people that I've learned a lot from. So, yeah, I guess that's the only thing that's coming off the top of my head is we do live in momentous times. And the fact that I get to sit down with these people and sort of siphon some wisdom in the time that I do, it's a miracle to me. It's really is to be able to do it, like, do it with you. It's really cool. So, yeah, I guess, I mean, I would have to get more specific questions. I feel like that was kind of broad and I'd have to sit down. [01:36:04] Speaker B: You can return sometime and I can ask you questions. Or you could just think about it. Maybe you could just do one on your own and say, this is kind of what I have. [01:36:13] Speaker A: Yeah, I've thought about that, like doing a summary of my whole journey. Because it's kind of unique, to be honest with you. Like the people that. [01:36:20] Speaker B: I'd be happy to ask you some questions if you want that, but otherwise, if you do it yourself, that's fine too. Yeah. Because I think it could be valuable. You know, you, you have a perspective that most people don't have because most people only meet a few. Guru. [01:36:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:36:34] Speaker B: So they don't have the broader perspective. [01:36:38] Speaker A: Well, I like to say the truth is one and the wise call it by many names. So that's my goal with all of these talks is like, how can I get to this essence of the truth per se? I know we said there is no truth, but, you know, just. [01:36:53] Speaker B: No, no, but there are things that are valid. What I meant was there isn't an ultimate truth. It doesn't mean there's no truth. I didn't mean to imply that everything is wrong or false. I'm just saying there isn't just one ultimate truth. [01:37:07] Speaker A: Yeah. So to chase that truth or that validity, I try to get that with the person. I'm like, I try to see it, how they see it. And I speak to many different paths, many different ways of life from all over the world. And there really is, there really is the one path or the one truth. There really is like this one alignment, there is one mind and there's many, many, probably infinite amounts of ways to describe it. So that's what I've come to find is like, even if the person may look different, sound different, may just be a little strange or something, it's like they might be onto something. So I try to get to what they're onto and just follow that, you know, and it allows me like doing this whole thing has allowed me to see the elements of this so called truth in all of the different traditions of the world. Right. The traditional ways like Christianity, Buddhism, Islam is something that I've actually been exploring recently, which is kind of interesting, Eastern philosophy, to see all of that, to see what is this kernel that they have, this essence of truth despite the dogma. And also see it in how. In other people as well. Like to really chase that one essence in all of the different ways, it's like they're on to something, you know, they're really onto something. It's. It'd be an omnist. Have you ever heard of that? It's like you're an omnist, I think. [01:38:40] Speaker B: Okay. [01:38:41] Speaker A: Pretty much like being, it's like being a believer of all religions. [01:38:44] Speaker B: Okay. [01:38:45] Speaker A: So doing this whole thing has made me a believer in all religions. Doesn't mean it's all all right in all religions, but they're, they're touching upon something that is correct. [01:38:53] Speaker B: So. [01:38:54] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. So it's just further that along talking to people and. Yeah, that's pretty much it. And also just easier to relate in, in my day to day life too. Like I come on here with strangers I don't even know and have deep conversations. It's a. [01:39:09] Speaker B: Right. [01:39:09] Speaker A: It's an exercise in interpersonal relation. So I get along better with people around me and my personal life, even if we're not talking about spiritual matters. It's a, it's a good exercise in just being able to relate to others. [01:39:25] Speaker B: But what you're describing is that you have become more and more neutral in a sense. Yeah, yeah. [01:39:31] Speaker A: Actually you're open. [01:39:32] Speaker B: But. But with neutral, I don't mean that you're not discerning between what's phony and what's real. Because when you're neutral, you're connected to the one mind. So you can evaluate do these people have some genuine connection or don't they? [01:39:46] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. It's a good way to put it. It's made me very neutral, very equanimous in my dealings. [01:39:54] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you could say universal as well. You're accepting of other people instead of the ego being afraid of other people being different. [01:40:03] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:40:07] Speaker B: It's kind of like when you really know who you are, how can you be threatened by other people being different? [01:40:17] Speaker A: That's a lesson we all need to get. [01:40:19] Speaker B: Yeah, but that's the essence of the ego. It feels threatened by anything different from itself because it wants to be infallible. [01:40:28] Speaker A: Yeah, safety, it's like feeling safe around others. And that's also the wavelength that I try to bring to people. Like when I'm speaking with them, I hope to make them feel safe as I feel, because I like, I think I feel safe around anybody, most people. Right. Like I can, I feel like there's. You're not going to, you're not going to harm me by anything you say. Right. So I try to bring that to others. And I think that's why I can do this show, is because I feel safe around everybody and people feel safe around me. [01:41:00] Speaker B: Right, right. [01:41:02] Speaker A: That's a skill. That's a skill that I've garnered over the last 300 episodes. [01:41:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But there's also a state of mind, you know, where you transcend the ego that feels so threatened by anything that's different because otherwise it's very easy to go into this, reacting to and it's a delicate balance. Because you could say, you read about the Buddha, you know, he had some very heated discussions with the Hindu Brahmins and you see Jesus and the scribes and the Pharisees, you know, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, year of your father the devil and all of this stuff flipping the table. So. So you can still challenge things that aren't, you know, that are. You can challenge things that are created to mislead people and that are out of duality. But, but then when it comes to people who are genuine and who have well intentioned, then you don't need to challenge them because they have a different way of looking at it. I, I think. Yeah, you, you said it, you know, there. What was you Said there's one truth, but people describe it differently. [01:42:09] Speaker A: Yeah, the truth. Yeah, exactly. The truth is one and the wise call it by many names. [01:42:13] Speaker B: Oh yeah, okay, yeah, that's a good saying. I've heard that before, you know, so. [01:42:18] Speaker A: It'S from the Rig Veda. [01:42:19] Speaker B: Oh, okay. [01:42:22] Speaker A: They actually say God is one in the wise call by many. But I just say the truth. Truth, God. [01:42:27] Speaker B: You know, many years ago I watched that movie Ben Hur. Have you ever seen that? Ben Hur? There's a movie called that? No, it's about. It takes place on Jesus's time with the Roman Empire and this and that. But anyway, it's a two and a half hour movie, widescreen, really a classic. But anyway, the one thing that made the most impression on me was that the main character, whose name is Ben Hur, he is talking to an old man who was supposedly one of the wise men that came to Jesus's birth. And the wise man says, there are many paths to God, my son. I hope yours will not be too difficult. And that just burned itself into my mind. There are many paths to God and we all have to follow our own. [01:43:19] Speaker A: Yep. [01:43:21] Speaker B: And that's why I'm saying also the outer teachings, the outer teachers, they are just sort of things that help us take the next step on our path. [01:43:32] Speaker A: Yeah, like guideposts. [01:43:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Well, they may be very necessary in order to get up to a certain level. It's like if you are going to the fifth story of a building, you have to take the stairs. You can't jump up there in one giant leap, but once you're up there, do you need to drag the stairs with you? [01:43:57] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly, yeah. Isn't there. There's a saying in Buddhism too. It's like you have to use the raft to get to the other side of the river. [01:44:05] Speaker B: Yeah, something like that. A boat or crash in a boat. [01:44:09] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, Same idea. [01:44:11] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [01:44:13] Speaker A: Again, there's many different ways to describe this so called truth. Or the path or the many paths. Many different ways, many different metaphors. And that's my love. That's my love. Is to really explore how one describes this is. I don't know why. That's just something that tickles my fancy. [01:44:31] Speaker B: I came to a realization a long time ago that what really matters is that we have these aha. Experiences or shifts in consciousness where we suddenly see something. Like you were saying recently you started seeing a certain aspect of the path. And so we make these shifts. And what I realized was that in many cases a worded Teaching can help us make these shifts. Not always, but in many cases. But you and I can read the same teaching. And it might give you an higher experience. It might not give me one, because in my mind, I need different words to unlock the experience. That's why there's room for many spiritual teachings and many spiritual teachers. But the thing is, again, you know, at a certain level, you need a certain teaching to unlock. But then when you get above that level, you. If you insist on only studying that teaching, you can limit your growth. [01:45:33] Speaker A: Yep. Remain fluid. I think I already said that. [01:45:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. It's worth saying a thousand times because it's. It's one of the hardest things to understand. I mean, I can see it in myself, how I. I had periods where I felt, oh, yeah, now I reach some higher understanding now. Now I. Now I understand it. I've got the truth, as you said. But then I realized that, yeah, what I saw might have been valid enough, but there was just so much more to see outside of that. It's like imagine you're inside a bunker. In Denmark, we have these bunkers that the Germans built during the Second World War. So you go in this concrete structure, and there's this little hole you can see out of, and you are seeing the sky. I mean, this is how the sky looks. Right. But you're only seeing a little sliver. So if you now in your mind, thinks, oh, I. I've seen the whole sky. Yeah. You're always going to stay in the bunker. [01:46:37] Speaker A: Yep. [01:46:38] Speaker B: Whereas you. What? You need to, at some point, say, is there something outside the bunker of my own mind? [01:46:45] Speaker A: Mm. It's never over. [01:46:52] Speaker B: No, that's a good thing, you know? [01:46:54] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the good news. Yeah. [01:46:55] Speaker B: Otherwise it'd be boring. But that's bad news for the eagle. [01:46:59] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:47:00] Speaker B: Who's chasing the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? [01:47:08] Speaker A: Well, I guess we also can recognize there are parts of gold. I mean, there's are fruits of our labor, too. [01:47:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Right. [01:47:17] Speaker A: We don't have to give up everything in terms of materialism there. The fruits come and go. [01:47:22] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:47:23] Speaker A: But it's like you don't even care. [01:47:24] Speaker B: You also have to be careful that you don't fixate yourself on this ultimate goal, like enlightenment or awakening. [01:47:30] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:47:31] Speaker B: Because I've seen this. This is what people do. Here's a teacher that people claim he's enlightened, and so in their mindset, they create this. He's superhuman. Right. And they think that his consciousness is just so beyond theirs. And so in their mind, they are thinking, oh, only when I reach that level of consciousness will I have the fruits of my efforts. But the thing is, every time you see through an illusion and you discover more of who you are and who you're not, you're going to feel better about yourself. When you resolve psychology, you feel better about yourself. So for each step, there's a reward. But you don't necessarily. I've met people who don't see it because they are chasing that enlightenment, that ultimate consciousness. And I think until they get there, it hasn't been worth it. [01:48:27] Speaker A: Yep, I feel that. And I think we're just speaking from personal experience, too. I don't think it's a condemnation, you know? [01:48:35] Speaker B: No, no. [01:48:36] Speaker A: I feel like you've probably been through that. I've been through that. [01:48:38] Speaker B: Oh, I've done it myself all the time. And I've seen many other people do it. You know, I'm just trying to share some of the blind alleys I've seen on the path that people can fall into, because I wish somebody had told me this. Maybe I hadn't been able to hear it at the time. I don't know. But. Yeah, but I mean, it's part of what's so important in today's age, actually, is that today we look back at these Jesus, the Buddha, Ramana, Maharshi, Yogananda, these teachers. But they are so remote from us that we can't really always learn from, because it's harder to see them as examples. So that's why I'm saying, when millions of people starting speaking out and sharing their experiences of how I overcame something, that's when people can relate to that and say, oh, hey, this guy grew up in similar circumstances than me, and he's overcome this. So I can, too. But how many people see Ramana Maharshi as an example? You know, I do. [01:49:42] Speaker A: He's on my list. [01:49:43] Speaker B: Yeah. But as a personal example that you could emulate because you grew up in a totally different society. And he really. [01:49:50] Speaker A: Yeah, like, I can't be around him. [01:49:52] Speaker B: And he really didn't describe the path to enlightenment. He was spontaneously enlightened. [01:49:57] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:49:58] Speaker B: See, and it's like if you're at the 48th level of consciousness and you meet a guru who's at the 140th level of consciousness, that's a big leap, you know, and especially if the guy claims that he was enlightened spontaneously at that level, it's better that you meet a person who says, yeah, I started out at the 48th level consciousness. And I went through this and this and this. Because then you say, oh, this I can relate to this. I can learn so that I can climb faster than he did. And that's why I think this is Aquarian age spirituality. The Piscean age. You had the gurus. That was the age of gurus. But the Aquarian age is the age of examples. And examples has something you can relate to. It's not so far removed from you. And that's why I think in this age, the model isn't that there's a person who sets himself up as a guru and claims to have reached some ultimate state of consciousness, but a person says, listen, I've walked the path, and these are my experiences. If they are helpful for you, good. If not, you find somebody else who started out the same way you did. And that's why I decided when I started doing my YouTube videos that I would just share myself and my experiences and what I've gone through, because that's what I think can help people. [01:51:29] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel that from you, man. You're. How do I put this? You're a good teacher because you're like a regular guy. You know what I mean? I mean that in the best way possible. It's like you're Michaels. You know, you're not Ramana Maharshi with no clothes on. You're. You're just a regular guy. Just turn the camera on. You just talk. And that's why you're a good teacher, is because you are just. You're just a person like anybody else. It's very relatable. That's why I like Ram Dass, too, because he's just a regular guy. He's just the guy. [01:51:59] Speaker B: But that's also, you know, the way I see spiritual growth, is that you're uniting with the one mind. And therefore, you're starting to see the one mind, not just in yourself, but in others. And so how can. You can't even feel special. You. You don't feel special. Yeah, the. The more you unite with the one mind, the less special you feel. [01:52:24] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:52:25] Speaker B: You know, that's good. I mean, it's just the nature of it, you know, and, and, but this took me many, many decades to realize that and actually begin to experience. And it's still a process, you know, that I think is still going on. But I think this is. I mean, it's, again, this, you know, the old model. You have this teacher who's reached his ultimate level of consciousness. He attracts a small number of followers how much? I'm not saying it isn't valuable and it can't shift the consciousness, but just imagine that we had many people who were examples and who attracted millions of people who said, we can walk the spiritual path too. That would raise the consciousness much, much more. [01:53:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I think it's happening. [01:53:17] Speaker B: Yeah, I think it is too. But it will only reach its full potential when more and more people begin to realize this is not a matter of me being so special or reaching some ultimate level. It's about me sharing my path, my mistakes, my insights, my problems, you know, the things I've gone through. I mean, I. I have met so many people in. Since 2002, when I started doing conferences. And at a conference, you know, I'm not the elevated teacher who only appears on stage. I. I go out and talk to people. I. I sit with them at meals. And so I try to talk to people all the time. And I just met so many people that had a much more difficult life than I did. And sometimes I feel I can't help them because I haven't experienced what they experienced. So I'm talking to them based on my having a fairly easy outer life, but they've gone through some really tough stuff with being abused as children or going through experiencing war and all kinds of things. And sometimes I feel like I really wish I could help them, but I'm not sure they can relate to me because I don't have the same experience. So that's why I'm saying we also need people who have had all the kind of experiences you can have on earth, but who have risen above it and can therefore help people and say, you know what? I know exactly what you feel. I know exactly what you're going through. But here's what helped me. I can't say that to many people. [01:54:53] Speaker A: Yeah, we can only do what. We can only do what we can do, you know? [01:55:00] Speaker B: But that's why I'm saying the old model that there has to be this ultimate spiritual teacher who could help everybody, it's just fallen by the wayside. There needs to be millions of teachers so that everybody can find somebody they can relate to. [01:55:17] Speaker A: Amen. Well, I relate to you, Kim. I think a good amount of people will relate to you. I think they do already. And I thank you for sharing what you share. I actually have to get going. I would love to speak to you more, but I got another call. I gotta hop on in a few minutes. I hate to wrap it up. [01:55:34] Speaker B: No, no, we have to wrap it up at some point. It's the nature of time and space. But if you ever want to do another session, I'd be happy to question you about, guide you along to tell your story. [01:55:44] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure. Kim, this was awesome, but I thank you for joining me today. This was an amazing conversation. And like I said, I. I honor having you on and, and just chopping it up with you, man. [01:55:57] Speaker B: So, yeah, I'm very happy to connect with you too. So. [01:56:00] Speaker A: Cool. Well, peace and love to you, Kim. And peace and love to anybody that listen to song. And that's it. [01:56:06] Speaker B: Right. [01:56:07] Speaker A: Goodbye, everybody.