The Essence of Tantra with Skyler Miller

[00:00:00] Speaker A: First of all, Skyler, thank you for joining me today. [00:00:03] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. I'm very excited to be here, for sure, man. [00:00:09] Speaker A: So, yeah, getting this thing started, would you be able to give us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Exactly. [00:00:16] Speaker B: Yeah, of course. So my name is Skyler Miller, and I run a tantric yoga school called Ride the Tiger Yoga. And I've been running that school for about four years now. We have a YouTube channel where we post a lot of videos on the esoteric. And I have students all over the world who I teach every week. And I've been practicing tantra for a very long time, close to 20 years now. I was introduced to esoteric practice by my mother when I was very young, and I continued with it. And it's my life, it's what I do. I see no barrier between my practice and my life. And that's my general philosophy with tantra, is that when you practice tantra long enough and yoga, you integrate yoga into your life and your entire life becomes pursuit of dharma. You enter the dharma mega samadhi, as we say. And. Yeah, and then. And then everything is practice. This is practice. Right now, just speaking with you, I'm going to learn a lot, and I know I will. And, yeah, I'm very excited for it. [00:01:42] Speaker A: As will I. And I am very excited as well. So. All right, you've probably gotten this question millions of times, but I'm going to ask it anyway. What is tantra? [00:01:52] Speaker B: Ah, okay, good question. So tantra, as I define it, and I need to make sure that I note that my definition of tantra is my own. So this is not a dogmatic definition. It's not something that everyone just has to accept. But if I look at the tradition of tantra, this is how I interpret it. Tantra is a science for the exploration of consciousness. And if you look at the etymology of tantra, it means to expand or to weave. And if you take this perspective, tantra is a perennial practice, meaning that it has reappeared throughout time in various cultures under different names. And I specifically emphasize tantra as the expression of that perennial tradition, because I believe that the Indians, the Tibetans, the Chinese and the Japanese as well, with Tantric Buddhism, have preserved the best example of the magical practices of the science of exploration of consciousness as compared to any other culture. And I'm speaking of, for example, the Shaolin Temple in China, which is a Tantric temple. You have the. The Vajrayana tradition in Tibet, Shingon Buddhism in Japan. You have Tantra in India. And they have done a wonderful job of preserving these practices. But tantra being perennial, we can find these practices, this approach, this science, everywhere in the world. For example, in Scandinavia, they call it Seder, or you have the Greco Roman mystery schools, which all have their own way of approaching this principle of exploring consciousness, particularly from a base in the material world. So the idea is that tantra is not a religion. It can incorporate religion, but it's not a religion. It's not confined to any one specific race or culture. It is something that you can utilize to expand your awareness of consciousness and to interact with the webbing, the web of weird, we call it in the Scandinavian tradition. But the webbing of the cosmos in order to willfully manipulate your consciousness and set your own path. And so the integration of the material is a very important element of tantra, especially in this age. We live in the Kali Yuga, which is an age of materiality. And so the exploration of consciousness for all of us begins with the material. It's the aspect of consciousness that is most obvious to us. So we don't have to apply a religious approach if we don't want to in the application of tantra, because the things that we learn through tantra are through direct experience and experimentation. [00:05:19] Speaker A: Wow. I think that was probably the best explanation I've heard. [00:05:23] Speaker B: Oh, thank you. Thank you. Like I said, it's just the way that I perceive it. But that's key, because if we want to keep tantra scientific, and that's one of my goals, then we have to recognize that there are different approaches for different people. And my approach might work for some and it might not work for others. We judge the efficacy of the practice based upon its results. [00:05:54] Speaker A: So if it's a science and we're trying to discover ourselves, essentially, what would you say is the end result? Is it more sovereignty, more power, more freedom? Right. Where does this all lead us? [00:06:11] Speaker B: Another very good question. It depends on the person. Okay. So there are different ways to approach consciousness. There are different ways to apply Tantra. And your cultural lens has an effect on the way that you experience tantra, which is why I personally favor the Indian approach and the. The. The Asiatic Buddhist approach. I personally resonate with that approach, especially Buddhism. So for me personally, I can tell you that Tantra is a process of becoming a Buddha, which is to do as much good as possible, do as little bad as possible, and have control over my consciousness. And this is the path to Buddhahood. Now, what does that mean? Right. What is good and bad? Well, it depends on who you ask, because you can look at the universe as having an aspect of absolute truth, and if you seek that, you will find it. Or you can perceive the universe to be pluralistic and without any ultimate truth. So we, in that instance, generate our own truth. We generate our own understanding of what is good or bad for us, and that might be different from what is good or bad for another person. That's my personal outlook on things. But that's not the best outlook, universally speaking. It's just the one that works for me. So I would say that tantra is utilized primarily as a means of identifying and cultivating dharma. And like I said, that dharma could be directed towards absolute truths, universal truths, or it could be directed towards personal truth and understanding. And it's up to the individual to decide what direction they want to go. [00:08:31] Speaker A: Mm. Now, wouldn't it be ideal for every individual to pursue absolute truth? You know, if there is the said absolute truth, wouldn't that be the highest pursuit? [00:08:48] Speaker B: That's a good point. I'll tell you why I do not personally pursue absolute truth. So from my understanding, absolute truth, especially on issues of morality, requires an absolute lawgiver. Otherwise, it's absurd to say that there's an absolute truth, because who's determining the absolute truth in the absence of an absolute lawgiver? So when you recognize an absolute lawgiver, you must recognize a cosmic hierarchy where every sentient being is under the will and direction of the absolute lawgiver. And this creates a pyramidal structure of consciousness where everything flows to a point which in tantra, we often call the bindu. Not just the bindu, not just the chakra, the bindu. That's a physical point on the body that in terms of tattva, or element of consciousness, is a mirror of the external principle of the bindu. The bindu is the point. And from a philosophical standpoint, we could say that this is the monistic point. So within monism, everything flows from one and returns to one. [00:10:19] Speaker A: The monad. [00:10:21] Speaker B: Yeah. The absolute. Yes. The absolute principle, the godhead, whatever you want to call it. We call it the principle of shiva in the Indian tradition. Not just the God Shiva, but the principle of consciousness that we refer to as shiva, which ultimately is nothing. Because if you take everything and you reduce it to its, what we call pure consciousness, you have no more contrast. Everything is reduced to the essential. So there is no good or evil at that point. There is no hot or cold, pain or pleasure, because there's nothing to contrast with the immediate experience of consciousness. In the monistic point. And at that point, you lose individuated expressions of consciousness. So there's no me and there's no you, and there's no tapestry and there's no microphone. This is all illusion. It's illusory. And the process then of exploring consciousness is to remember that all of this is an illusion and then return to that condition of pure consciousness that we call the shiva principle. Okay, now that is a very useful perspective to take this absolute condition of consciousness, this absolute lawgiver, as ultimate truth if you are seeking to escape the illusory conditions of what we call Maya or samsara. Because the only way that we can overcome the compulsive aspects of self or identification with the self is by recognizing something beyond that, something that is a unifying principle of consciousness. And so within the practice of what we call dakshinashara, which is the Sanskrit term for the right hand path, we seek liberation from our individuated compulsive condition through rejection of that condition and ultimately moving towards shiva. This is what happens in kundalini yoga, for example. We take the shakti principle that we find in the muladhara chakra and we bring it up the spine to this transcendent point. As I said, when you take this perspective, consciousness is arranged in a pyramidal structure. It's a mountain, Mount Meru. And we climb that mountain, also called Mount Olympus. There's many different mountains, sacred mountains. We climb that mountain, we reach the peak, we have a transcendent experience, we return to what we came from in that perspective, which is nothing, Nirvana. Now, obviously, I'm enjoying my condition of being an individuated expression of consciousness right now. And I'm enjoying the fact that you are your own individuated expression of consciousness. So I'm not perceiving you or myself as nothing. I'm placing significance on my individuated expression of consciousness or your individuated expression of consciousness. And that's a different perspective. In that perspective, I recognize a fundamental plurality or a radical polytheism where everything in my environment possesses its own divinity. I could say that this microphone is divine, or this tapestry is divine, or you are divine, or I am divine. And when I take that perspective, I'm choosing to recognize that you are a sovereign form of consciousness. I am a sovereign form of consciousness. Even this so called inanimate object here, this microphone, is a sovereign expression of consciousness. And so this perspective is what we would associate with vamijara or the left hand path, the Left hand path is the reintegration of the Shakti principle. So after you've had this transcendent experience and you achieve rebirth, then you re embrace the mother of all differentiation of materiality, which is shakti. Now, I don't particularly identify with the right hand path or the left hand path. I consider myself to walk the middle path ultimately, which is the path of the Buddha, which is to say that Buddhahood is found somewhere between these two extremes. And of course that leads to many questions of how can these two extremes coexist? There's a fundamental absurdity there, but I'm okay with that. [00:15:38] Speaker A: I think that is one of the destinations, if not the destination is being okay with the absurdity and the paradox of it all that you just so eloquently described. It's like being okay with contradiction. And that's divine. [00:15:56] Speaker B: One is within the other. [00:15:58] Speaker A: Yeah. Nirvana, Samsara, Yin Yang. [00:16:01] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:16:01] Speaker A: Many different metaphors. Shiva Shakti, right? Yeah. Okay, so that's powerful, man. So I followed you there. It's like we, to get out of the self structure that we were conditioned into, there has to be this pursuit for absolute truth, right? This kind of pursuit for transcendence, for ascendance, getting out of the ego. But ironically, so what happens when you do pursue that absolute truth is you touch base with Shiva, you come back into the sense of nothingness and you come back into the human form. That's the rebirth. So do you think though, that is on this basis of absolute truth? Absolute like a destination per se, of tantra. That is the destination is seeing God in everything, like simultaneously recognizing it's all an illusion, but at the same time being able to play with the illusion. Being able to play with the thing that you thought was, that you thought was so serious before. Now you can actually have fun right now. You can actually start to love the illusion for what it is. [00:17:11] Speaker B: Yeah. So if I were to place absolute superiority upon the condition of Buddhahood, then I would say yes, that would be the ultimate expression of Tantra, the ultimate goal. But even Buddhas get sick of being Buddhas and then they incarnate as a so called lower form in order to do some work. Well, what is that work? Sometimes that work is postured as for philanthropy, for the good of all sentient beings. A Buddha takes a lower birth. But that is one perspective, and that can be true. Another perspective is that it gets boring being a Buddha, having so much awareness. So you eliminate some of your awareness. And we do this in our own life. I mean, not everyone does this. But, you know, people enjoy drinking, for example. They enjoy smoking weed, taking LSD or, you know, many other activities, watching a movie. That takes them out of their awareness and puts them in an altered state of consciousness so that they have contrast. So I don't believe that Buddhahood is an inherently superior condition. I think that in the evolution of consciousness, Buddhahood is a state that you can reach that might be appropriate for your present incarnation and the expression of your dharma. But at some point, maybe you want to be deluded. Maybe you don't want so much awareness. And then incarnating as a cricket might be a superior condition for your journey, whatever that may be. [00:19:12] Speaker A: This is good. Yeah. So it's like, there is no destination. The only absolute truth is there is no absolute truth. There is no ultimate destination, and it's fruitless to think so, to think like that. Is Tantra like a fluid practice, would you say? It is like. It's like an ever evolving, ever evolving modality. I think you said it in the beginning, like, yoga becomes your lifestyle. Yoga becomes your life. Like, your entire life is the yoga. So depending upon the situation and circumstances of your life, you could be a Buddha one day, and the next day you could be, I don't know, a ravenous hedonist. Right, right. Is that the essence of it? It's kind of like just going with the ebb and flow of what? I don't know. Is it what makes you happy? Is it what brings you fulfillment? Like, what is this. What is this thread that we follow, you know, on the path of tantra? [00:20:19] Speaker B: Well, once again, it. Excuse me. It depends on the individual. So if you develop the awareness of the absurdity of the condition of life, then you access a blank canvas where you become the painter of your own destiny, your own fate. You know, that whole idea of weaving. Okay, so in many different cultures, there are sacred weavers, like the Norns, for example, and they weave the destiny of mortals. And there are certain individuals who, through practice, can cut the string, take it away from them, and start weaving their own destiny. What does that really mean? Well, it means that you've become aware of your instinctual, animalistic reactivity, and you're no longer beholden to your animalistic condition. It's like the bear who realizes that he hibernates and then chooses not to. And human beings are pretty good at interfering with their own natural processes, which is why we've created so many artificial constructs, because we can, more than any other animal on this planet, we're really good at taking that thread, cutting it and then retying it and going in a different direction. Now, that can be an appropriate path for some individuals. But there are people, and in fact, most people, most people who are born on this plane come here to exist in what is a very simple condition of consciousness, of being passive enjoyers of earthly pleasure. And we call these people many different things. Shudra, culture bearers, plebeians, normies. Yeah, normies. And this has become a condition that many people within esoteric circles would consider to be an insult. You wouldn't want to be called a shudra. You wouldn't want to be called a normie, right. But these people enjoy the simple pleasures of life. They're not burdened with these questions of the absurdity of the cosmos. And what do we do with our life now that we've practiced yoga and we've achieved ego death? We've achieved reincarnation? Oh, what incarnation of Buddhahood am I in? Am I a bodhisattva or am I a Buddha? All of these questions. No, the questions that they deal with are, do I root for the chiefs or the rams? You know, and that's a perfectly beautiful condition of life. And when we see an animal doing its thing like a bear eating salmon in a river, you know, is it. Is the bear truly going to be improved by introducing him to tantric yoga? Maybe or maybe not. It depends on the incarnation. So I think yoga is something. At least the type of Yoga I practice is not for everybody. I wouldn't recommend it for everybody. It's not good for everybody. With that said, many of the people who have incarnated into this plane of enjoyment, which is really what this plane is all about, it's about extremes of pain and pleasure so that you can develop the capacity to enjoy. And at least that's how I interpret it. And many of the people who have incarnated here to live a simple life be in a simple condition of consciousness. I personally feel that they are not being served well by the individuals who have taken it upon themselves to cut the string of fate and weave their own destiny. Because those people wield a lot of power. Imagine you're the bear that doesn't hibernate. Imagine the resources you can accumulate, the power that you can accumulate. You can control all the other bears. You can create a culture for them. That culture can be something that is beneficial to them, healthy for them, or it can be something that exploits them brutally. And unfortunately, I believe that most people who are culture bearers or shoe drawers or normies or whatever you want to call them, are being exploited brutally by people who really, I believe, should know better, should try to create a better condition for those people. So what is the goal of all this? What is the point of all of this? Well, for the person who is born in a state where they might not naturally have access to yoga, their condition is to bear culture, to exist in flow with nature. And for those who do have the capacity to practice yoga and achieve initiation, induction, ashara and vamashara, whatever you want to call it, their goal is to become an artist. We have to ask yourself, are you making beautiful art or are you squandering your potential? And that's a question of personal taste. I will tell you that I'm a very pro social person, so I want to see humanity flourish. And I don't like to see people in a condition of brutal exploitation. So my art is to remove as many people from that condition as possible so that they can enjoy their life while they're here. But there are other people who exist to brutally exploit people. We can call them Asura if we want, or we can call them deva. It's really a matter of perspective. But I find myself personally in opposition to those exploiters. [00:26:26] Speaker A: Yeah, I noticed that trend as well, of people that are on this path. I mean, there's many different paths, but we can just say the path, right, with a capital T and P of wanting to help out of service. I think in finding out your nature and also cutting the ties with your nature. I think when one does become reborn, there is this essence of service. It's like it doesn't really. It's not always for sure. There's definitely, you know, there's dark magicians out there. But I feel like once you see things a certain way, you can't help but help out. You can't help but try to bring others along. Because it's just. I think that's just natural, man. I think for most human beings, like we have this natural inclination to serve, and especially if you're conscious, there is this essence of. It's the bodhisattva. I think that's just natural. Now, would you say there's contrary to that? Like, it's not, it's not a given, which I can. I can recognize it's not a given for sure. Like just this. Just because you have some essence of awakening or consciousness doesn't mean you're a good person. It's not causation. But I think there is a correlation in that. There is a correlation between people that have some essence of awakening and being a good person. So what do you say to that? [00:27:55] Speaker B: Well, I would say that for some individuals, the generation of Bodhichitta or the. The desire towards Buddhahood, and. And the. Which for most people who do pursue Buddhahood, there is a tendency towards a benevolence, right? But the problem is one man's benevolence is another man's malevolence. So let's say I incarnated into this realm because my consciousness, my. My art that I'm creating is one that's very selfish. I'm trying to establish awareness of the physical borders of the self so that I can contrast that with the dissolution of borders that we would find in the Shiva principle. So there are people who are more aligned towards the embrace of shakti, and there are people who are more aligned towards the embrace of Shiva. And I'm inclined to believe that the natural tendency is based upon the karma that we've inherited from our previous incarnation. So who's to say? I mean, I like to. We all like to think of ourselves as good people, right? But there are plenty of people in this world who would consider me to be a terrible person. There are plenty of people who would see me as the devil, right? One man's devil is another man's Christ. One man's beauty is another man's ugliness. And so I say personally that I recognize in a differentiated cosmos there are things that are going to be naturally opposed, like fire and ice. Do we say that ice is good and fire is bad? I guess you could. [00:29:49] Speaker A: Depends. [00:29:50] Speaker B: It depends, right? So I'm ice to somebody's fire, and I'm fire to someone's ice. And so I'm going to perceive myself to be good because perception of goodness is an optimism towards the advancement of my consciousness, right? But I'm also going to recognize that I have bad qualities. Once again, what is good or bad is dependent upon that point of consciousness that you're directing your awareness to. If you're directing your awareness towards that monistic point, you would say that any discord is bad. So if I assert my autonomy in any sense, this is creating discord from the whole, right? So that's evil, that's bad. But like I said, I don't take that perspective because I find beauty. I choose to find beauty in the individuated expressions of consciousness. So I have to accept conflict as a result of my desire to experience that beauty. This is the age of quarrel, after all. And so, like I said, I Am the natural enemy of someone on this planet. And I'm okay with that. I'm okay with the suffering that is required in order to experience pleasure. But some people are not. And that's all right too. [00:31:23] Speaker A: Yeah. So your, I guess, motive is enjoyment. Right. We kind of. We said in one way or the other that we all yearn to enjoy our experience here. And you just elucidated, correct me if I'm wrong, that you find enjoyment through seeing others individuate themselves in their own path. Right. Freedom, freeing the others, you know? Now, how do I put this? Let me take a second here. Because of the laws of karma, I would say that's like, a good thing to do. I think that's naturally. I think that's just naturally good. I think that's just like, good karma. Like, you're sowing seeds of your own enjoyment through helping others. Right. I think that's just like the natural. Just a natural thing. Like, you do good for others, you get good back. Right. That's kind of basic, but I think that's the premise of it. Now, don't you think those laws of the universe also apply to everyone else? So even if through my own individual. Individual infiguation, through my own motive, through my own inclinations, I sow the seeds of, say the opposite of you, of wanting to be a dictator. Right. And imposing my own will to control others that ultimately hurts others to not free them, essentially. Wouldn't that lead to, through the laws of karma, me not enjoying my experience here? You know what I'm getting at here? I'm trying to, like, see. I'm trying to see. I'm trying to get out of you. Maybe that there is. There is a basis of. Of. Of law in order. Yeah, I don't know if that's the right word, but there's a basis of, like, if. If you really want to enjoy this experience, there has to be, like, tendency of behavior to be able to enjoy. And I think it's just really just through serving others. That's my. That's my vantage point. Maybe I'm wrong. Maybe I'm naive. But I think there's the basis of, like, you got to help out in your own dharma. So do you think that's, you know, do you think that's part of the law of karma, is like, if you want to have a good time here, a good experience overall, which we concluded is like. That's kind of like the goal is like, you just want to have a good time here as a human being, that you should help out the other human beings in that process. [00:33:49] Speaker B: You know what? [00:33:49] Speaker A: I'm getting here. I know. That was a little bit. [00:33:51] Speaker B: No, that makes total sense for me. Yeah, yeah, No, I understand completely. This is clearly your dharma. You have identified your dharma. This is what you find to be beautiful. This is what is bringing you the experience of pleasure in this realm that you've incarnated into and is leading you towards the evolution of your consciousness. So this is a truth for you. You know, I like to think of myself as a good person, but I'm doing terrible things right now with what I'm teaching, I'm sowing seeds of absolute discord. [00:34:28] Speaker A: Yeah, but I don't think that's bad. That's not like, terrible. Well, terrible maybe to the powers that be, but the powers that be are terrible, Right? [00:34:36] Speaker B: Well, they don't think they're terrible. Yeah, because, see, I don't know, man. [00:34:42] Speaker A: I just believe in goodness. I just believe in some inherent goodness. I guess that's the difference in our vantage point here. Like, even if what you're working for is selfish for your own enjoyment, it's. It's like you're still working for that greater good that. That point of just being good for good sake. But in turn, that being good for good sake also affects your karma. So it's like selflessly selfish. You know what I'm getting at? Well, sorry, go ahead. I interrupted. [00:35:08] Speaker B: No, no, it's okay. I do not recognize the pleasure of the masses as being inherently superior to the pleasure of a single person. So if there is one being who incarnates with a natural tendency to become dictator of this planet, which, by the way, there are great heroes in mythology that we recognize as shining examples of dark dharma, like Ram, who are dictator figures. Right. You know, Vishnu in his many incarnations often fills his role. And I don't believe that the seeking of personal pleasure is inherently inferior to the development of mass pleasure. And if you're seeking of personal pleasure runs counter to the well being of the rest of the planet, and it is your dharma to continue to seek that pleasure, then I don't believe that you are inherently bad. An example of this would be. And we could. It's a matter of taste. But when William Burroughs wrote Naked Lunch and he offended the sensibilities of basically the entirety of the United States of America, save for a handful of individuals. And that book was brought up in a court case to determine whether or not it should be read by the public. Here's a man who's writing A book that most people would consider to be disgusting. Would consider to be incredibly offensive. And just generally has the potential to ruin their day. But he's doing it anyway, and he's creating this work of art. Well, the thing is, if you brought the book Naked Lunch to most people to this day. And had them read it, they would be disgusted by what they find in that book that's anywhere in the world. It's one of my favorite books. So I've gained a lot of pleasure by reading the work of Burroughs. Okay? Now, I could argue that it is in the best interest of all of humanity. To someday understand the beauty in the works of William S. Burroughs. But that would be very arrogant of me to assume that my taste in literature should be adopted as a universal standard of what is good and pleasurable. And so I just am happy with the perspective that some people are going to hate Burroughs. And some people are going to love Burroughs. And those who enjoy him, I can have a good conversation with them. I could say, oh, you enjoy Burroughs as well? Okay, well, let's talk about beat poetry, whatever, you know. And then there's others who are never going to. To get it. They're never going to enjoy that. And that's okay. There are things that I do not enjoy that I'm not going to expend my. I'm not going to spend my prana on it. But, of course, I'm speaking in terms of my present incarnation. Maybe the karma that I'm generating now will lead me to change, to evolve in the future. I've evolved quite a bit in this lifetime. You know, there are things that I didn't enjoy when I was younger that I enjoy now. But, yeah, I don't believe in a universal standard of what is of good taste or in any sort of behavior. Unless there is a universal tastemaker or a universal lawgiver. And I don't want to live under the thumb of that being. [00:39:16] Speaker A: What about love do you call. I qualify love as, like, a universal standard? If there is one, it's unconditional love. [00:39:27] Speaker B: Well, when I step on a blade of grass, I'm destroying life. I don't know if that's an act of love, but I'm also walking towards my girlfriend to give her a hug. [00:39:47] Speaker A: That's funny. That's interesting. [00:39:58] Speaker B: Guess what I'm saying is every act of creativity in this differentiated world. Comes with some degree of destruction. One man's poison is another man's medicine. [00:40:14] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe that is love. You know, it's. [00:40:22] Speaker B: To me, it's Beauty. [00:40:25] Speaker A: Yeah, it's the beauty between destruction and creation. I don't know. Just riffing here. [00:40:34] Speaker B: Well, you know, I learned to stop worrying and love the bomb. [00:40:41] Speaker A: Love the bomb. That's a new one. [00:40:43] Speaker B: Dr. Strange. Love. [00:40:45] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:40:50] Speaker B: Maybe you will be able to pull some universal principle out of me, but in my present incarnation, I'm pretty steadfast on the. This is all just my opinion. [00:41:02] Speaker A: I like it. No, that's good, though. That's extremely respectable. Rather than saying this is how you're going to think, this is the doctrine, you should think this way. It's very respectable. Well, thank you. Although, let me say this. I think some kind of universal standard for you, or maybe not even you just in general in this conversation right now, is enjoyment. And think of the etymology. So you're enjoy, right? What puts one enjoy. If we can conclude something from this moment, it's like if there is a standard, a tantric standard, it's as we said, enjoying this experience for what it is. The good, the bad, the ugly, the destruction and the creation of it all. I think that is loving the experience that is love. It's like ideally, no matter what, being okay, being okay with it, being okay with life, being okay with death, and just being in this sense of joy. I just. I love that word. Like, you're in joy, right? You're in this. Like you're in this other realm. You are in love. You are in. You're in it, man. So is that. Would you say. Would you say that is maybe. I feel like I'm hounding you too much on this universal stuff. This is a wonderful coming up. [00:42:26] Speaker B: This is a wonderful conversation, a very important conversation to have. [00:42:30] Speaker A: I chase threads. So right now the thread is like, you know, what are we doing here? What is this whole path all about? And right now it's like it seems to be enjoyment. We do all these practices. We take the psychedelics, we do the magic, we read the books, yada, yada, we do all of it so we can enjoy the experience. But then the question to me is, well, what does it really mean to enjoy, to be in. In enjoyment? Because a lot of people think enjoyment is hedonism, it's playing video games, it's pointless sex, it's drugs. It's like an escape. But it seems to me, actually, I think enjoyment is an embrace. Another etymology there. I think it's more so like an embrace of all that. Not to escape it, not to like escape yourself, but to go and utilize that, utilize all those practices and modalities that may not even seem like practices and modalities on the surface level. To really just to be viscerally in it. To be in this experience, to be, again, I'll say it again, to be enjoy. It's like I think when you're enjoying, you are, you're just cliche in the moment, like you are with it. So I'm trying to get like a basis of what it means to enjoy here. And I know that might be hard to answer, but what does it mean to actually be happy? What does it mean to be happy, man? [00:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah, what does it mean to be happy? Well, I actually am of the opinion that though this is a realm that is defined by extremes and where you can access enjoyment and that people tend to come here to enjoy, sometimes that enjoyment of consciousness is found outside of this world. So, you know, like the example of Christ, My kingdom is not of this world. Well, there are many people who take that perspective. You know, the Jains take that perspective, radical ascetic perspective, you know, and their path is one of great suffering. Of course Christ suffered greatly, but is there joy in the suffering? Well, I guess that is sort of like the principle, right? Can you balance your experience of pain and pleasure? Can you see one in the other? [00:45:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, right. That's the essence, I think. [00:45:02] Speaker B: Yeah. So can you. One man could say this realm is a realm of enjoyment. Another man could say this realm is a realm of pain. I actually say it's both, but I see one in the other. But that condition of consciousness is one that is difficult for many people to reach. And most people, if they stub their toe, that is just pure pain. And they're not going to see one and the other in that experience. And it takes a lot to reach that conclusion of non duality. So yeah. Is my experience of this non dualistic condition, is this the ultimate purpose of all of us who incarnate here? I don't know. What do you think? [00:45:57] Speaker A: Do I think that is the ultimate purpose for all of us? I mean, maybe sometime in the future, definitely not in this lifetime, in this incarnation. It's definitely not a realistic possibility. Maybe someday we'll all be at this equanimous state. But it seems like this realm is the realm of conflict. So all of us, if we were all at that point of Kumbaya, it's like life would lose its spark. You know, we love conflict, human beings love conflict. That's why we still have war all over the world. So there's an essence that of us that like you know, we all yearn for the hippie mindset of world peace and just love. And you know, I said unconditional love is this guiding principle, for sure. I think that is like, that is like a, a leading principle for me, but for all of us, I don't know. I can't foresee it. Like I said, at least in this lifetime, maybe in the future, maybe in the next Yuga, but for sure in. [00:47:00] Speaker B: The next Yuga because everything's going back to God in the satya Yuga. Yes, for sure. [00:47:05] Speaker A: Yeah, maybe it's just really hard for our minds to be able to comprehend that state in the way that we were born in this realm, in this very, very dense experience of unconditional love. It's like, what does that even look like at a surface level, experiential level? I don't, it doesn't, it doesn't compute. That doesn't make any sense. We love conflict. We love conflict. Human beings just love drama, right? And sometimes it's very drastic drama, like I said. In terms of war, I guess, I don't know. The question is like, if we're all at that non dual state of awareness, do we still have conflict? I mean, from my point of view, as I argued before, probably a lot less. Probably a lot less conflict. Because as I said, there is a correlation between realization and cooperation, we could say, and less like competition, I think. Definitely not a guarantee. But you know, there is a correlation between having this insight and not wanting to war with people, for sure. What was your original question is like, are we going to get there? Is that realistic possibility? [00:48:24] Speaker B: Well, what I'm really getting at is do you think the ultimate purpose of, of this incarnation incarnating in this realm is a realization of that non dualistic state of seeing one and the other? [00:48:39] Speaker A: I think that is a, that is a. I wouldn't say it's the one destination, but it's a very, very important destination, that's for sure. And it actually might just be the start of freedom. I think once you have that realization, that's when the fun starts. That's when the journey of Tantra really starts. And then, you know, Shiva can come back to Shakti and you can start to dance. Shiva and Shakti can dance. So I wouldn't say that is the one destination for all if there is an endpoint per se, but it could be a potential starting point for all of us to be able to create Satyuga. We could say, am I making sense here? [00:49:19] Speaker B: Yeah, that makes total sense. And of course there's there's two potential outcomes of that. Because awareness doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to act upon that awareness. Right. I could be aware that tomorrow it's going to snow here, but then I decide to walk outside with a T shirt on because I've totally disregarded my awareness of the weather conditions. Or maybe I did that on purpose. But anyway, if everyone has this realization of that non duality, I could see it going two ways. Everything dissolves into oneness because we've rejected this discord and we want to live at ultimate peace. Ultimate peace is the total silencing of everything. It's just there's, there's no, there's no conflict. As soon as you introduce contrast, you introduce conflict. So there's that. Or you could have the worst condition of war you could possibly imagine where you have all of these self deified Buddhas jostling for a position in this wild dance of fire at the, at the center, at the Anahata. And you have these extremes. So yeah. [00:50:33] Speaker A: It'S tricky line to toe. I think that the second option that you just outlined would happen. Say this is hypothetical obviously if that were to happen like that tomorrow. So like say all of a sudden somehow everybody woke up tomorrow, literally woke up. They were reborn into this non dual consciousness. But the world is still the same, still have the same countries, the same classic identifiers of who we thought we were. I think it would be this just war would be the war of crew, etc. All of a sudden it would just like people wouldn't be able to handle it wouldn't make sense. So if that were to be a collective awakening where all of us do get on this wavelength, it would have to be gradual. The world would have to develop, technology would have to develop. We'd have to have different systems in place for it to actually be realistic, for it to actually work. It just wouldn't. The world would crumble because it's like at this point the foundation of it is not built upon that non dual consciousness. The foundation of it is conflict. So when you ironically. So once you introduce this consciousness of non duality which is more so like I guess less inclined toward conflict in a world of conflict, it's only going to create more conflict. It's going to be like you know, cognitive dissonance at a mass scale. So that's a hypothetical obviously. So if this were to happen, as I said, it would take thousands of years, maybe hundreds. That's, I think, I don't think we'll do it in hundreds of years. But I think in thousands and thousands of years when technology develops and we mature and get to a point where we can sustain that, then, yeah, I can see us living in heaven. But not in this one. Definitely not in this one. But it's like our whole entire, like, DNA would have to develop at the same time too, because I think what's in our DNA, it's in our genes, is to love conflict. Like, we love war. It's in our. It's in. It's like. It's literally encoded in us, right? All the best video games and movies are based upon war because I think it's like literally a part of that human essence. And yeah, we'd have to like, develop our brains, we'd have to develop our hardware here in terms of like, literally who we are as humans to be able to. To digest that. Because I'm going to be honest, I don't even fully feel that way. I know it's like an ideal, but I still love war games. You know, I still play Battlefield. I. I'm interested in, like. I just think war is so interesting. I know this is. I've never said this before, but I think war is so interesting. It's like the highest form. Not the highest form, but it's like the most. Yeah, I guess it's the highest form of competition that human beings have. And I love competition. I like sports in that way. And I see war as that. I have this like, weird interest not in like, I want to be involved in war, but there's a part of me that I can't let go of. Being a man that just yearns for like, just who's winning this battle today. And just like the wars of history and what Napoleon did and Alexander the Great, right, that's in me. And I can't escape that. Even if we were to. Getting back on my point kind of rambling here, but if we were to tomorrow get to this non. Dual consciousness, everybody is at peace. I don't even think I could handle that. I'd be like, dude, battlefield's really fun. You know, Call of Duty is really fun. We gotta like. You know what I'm saying? I'm gonna play some Call of Duty here. It's just so. Yeah, I don't remember what your original question was. Is this. Is this gonna happen? No. Could it happen? Yeah, but it's gonna take. It's gonna take a little bit. We're gonna have to change. [00:54:17] Speaker B: If you don't mind me asking you another question, I know this is. [00:54:20] Speaker A: No, we're cool. We're just hanging, man. [00:54:22] Speaker B: Cool. Great. Where do you think that your enjoyment or interest in war comes from? If you. If you could pinpoint the origin of. Of that aspect of your consciousness, where do you think it comes from? [00:54:35] Speaker A: I don't know. I've never thought about that. That's really deep. I think it's because. Let me think about that one for a second. I think because it's so extreme, it's so. Just ludicrous almost, but it also makes sense. So there's like. How do I put this? To me, it's like, so, like, how do we do this? But at the same time, there's like, actually genius in warfare. So, like, a general is genius in the way they're playing a game. They're like the coach on a NFL team. They're just. It's very high stakes. So I think, to me, it's like there's almost beauty in how it's conducted. I know that sounds crazy, that sounds insane, but there's beauty in two sides having this strategy and having to think about outwitting each other. It's also a game of wits, you know, it always has been, from when people were using spears and swords to now. It's a game of intelligence. And I know it's not a game. Obviously, people's lives are on the line, but it kind of is. So I like the idea of it, people outsmarting each other. And the stakes are extremely high. There's something about that, to me, that I can't escape. And I love everybody. I'm a loving guy. But the dark side of me is this person that is just so intrigued that human beings can conduct this very intricate thing called war on each other. Right? It's almost like a morbid interest of mine. [00:56:10] Speaker B: And in this age we see, especially modernity that warfare is a mass activity, that entire populations become involved in it. And even if you have a significant chunk of the population rejecting the war, they're also supporting some kind of state apparatus which is always founded on the basis of violence, the threat of physical violence, to control whether or not we go to war to prevent further war. You know, rarely you'll find someone who says, who is a true pacifist. Because, you know, a true pacifist has to recognize that even the words they speak are violence upon the ear. But most, you know, this is a mass activity. So you could say that war is one of the great enjoyments of modernity on a universal enjoyment. And it continues to come up over and over again. And no matter how many times humanity comes out and tries to tell itself we don't like war, we don't like war. Well, they keep waging it. [00:57:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, I'm not saying I. I'm not in favor of war. That's definitely not what I'm saying. I'm interested in the phenomena of it happening. Right. This is the fact that it happens and how it happens. I wouldn't want to be a soldier. I wouldn't want to be a general. I wouldn't want to be a politician that sends people to their deaths. But to me, from, I guess, an outsider seeing this all happen literally in 4k now, from people's helmet cams in Ukraine and stuff like that, and seeing, like, historical footage, to me, I'm just so enamored that such a phenomena is. Is possible. And not only that, what. What it really takes, the extent that human beings go to. To kill each other, to me, I'm like, how? Why? I don't know why, man. It's just. I don't know. [00:58:21] Speaker B: Well, let me ask you another question, if that's all right. [00:58:24] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:58:26] Speaker B: What is. From a meta perspective, how do you define war? What is war? [00:58:35] Speaker A: What is war? It's two opposing forces vying for some sort of victory. They're vying for something, for control. Maybe from a metaphysical perspective, what is war? Yeah, I guess it's just like that is. That is the essence of it all, ain't it? Is. Is that yin and yang. Would you say the whole idea and the basis of polarity here is war is the basis of reality war. Is that what you're getting at? [00:59:11] Speaker B: And see, this is why I say to you that I'm doing a terrible thing by. By promoting that people have differentiated consciousness. Because what I'm ultimately arguing for is a condition of cosmic warfare. [00:59:25] Speaker A: Damn. [00:59:29] Speaker B: And that takes many forms. It could be intellectual debate. It could be picking up a rifle and shooting somebody. It could be, you know, getting out on a football field and trying to get a touchdown. But what I'm arguing for is the cat continuation of a condition of conflict between two forces. Ultimately, from the greatest meta perspective, those forces are Shiva and Shakti. [00:59:59] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. Yep. I think that's it, man. That's the incarnation that we have here, is this conflict. It's being okay with the conflict. And as we started the conversations, like being okay with the conflicting points of view, you as well, the continued conflict too. That's the thing being okay with that. The war never ends, really. [01:00:23] Speaker B: Right. It's a forever War. That's what it means to be an incarnated being. It means to be in some condition of conflict with something else. You know, just if I sit under the Bodhi tree and I don't talk to anybody and I don't, I don't start any fights, I'm still occupying land that could be occupied by somebody else. I'm forcing my position by occupying that land. The only way that you can ever escape that condition of cosmic warfare is to cease being a thing. [01:01:09] Speaker A: Yeah. Now that's Buddhism right there. [01:01:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:01:17] Speaker A: Huh. Now the war still goes on though. No. Like, once you see Anata no self, there's still conflict. What's different about how the war is waged? You know, is there any difference? [01:01:38] Speaker B: Well, there's. It depends on if you want to bring your awareness to the material differentiation and then begin to assign quality to the manner in which war is waged and then enforce your perspective. Or if you want to just see this very, very, very zoomed out meta perspective and say that all war is of the same nature because fundamentally it's all just conflict between a condition of action and inaction. Shiva and shakti, or shakti and Shiva. Shakti is the active principle and Shiva is the inactive principle. There's this beautiful myth that describes the activities of shakti, Vishnu and Shiva where shakti enters into a room that's covered in dust, stillness, and she starts to dance, because that's what she does, and she kicks the dust up off the floor. And Vishnu, observing this dance, he says, oh, this is a wonderful opportunity for me to construct something. So he takes all of those particles and he builds people and he builds cities, and he builds forests and mountains and he sustains them, he holds them in place. And Shiva, sitting in the corner, once enjoying his peace and stillness, sees now all this buzzing activity of all these different forms. And he says, you've interrupted my peace. And he gets up and he destroys all of it. And we have this process that repeats itself again and again and again. [01:03:21] Speaker A: Yep. Never ends. Again and again and again. [01:03:23] Speaker B: Unless you want to maintain that condition of Shiva, of eternal silence. But then the question, it begs the question, why are we even here? To begin with, is this condition of incarnation inevitable? It seems that it is. It seems that there's this force of shakti that's always going to kick the dust up no matter how many times we try to maintain stillness. [01:03:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And that just gets to the point of, you know, our inevitable demise is when the body goes away. It's like, well, there's also there's always going to be Shakti. So we're touching upon immortality here, you know? [01:04:00] Speaker B: Yes. [01:04:00] Speaker A: We are the essence of immortality. And that's where you get into reincarnation and things of that nature. It's like there really is no end to this game, per se. And that can be a very daunting thing to swallow. But that's how it goes. That's the cycle. You know, Shakti always dances, no matter what. [01:04:21] Speaker B: Well, do you remember what you were doing before you came here? [01:04:29] Speaker A: No. I mean, sometimes I get intuitive glimpses, you know, I get feelings. I have interactions with people. I'm like, maybe we knew each other. You know, Sometimes there's, like, little hints. But would I be able to articulate that to you plainly right now? No, of course not. [01:04:47] Speaker B: I don't remember either. But maybe. Maybe it's so. And this is just the theory, because there are people who have memories of past incarnations, and I can't say that they're wrong. I don't know. But I have a theory that many of us who have incarnated here, who do not remember what the hell we were doing before we got here. We were probably in the stillness. We probably erased all memory of what we were doing before we came here because we were overburdened by the condition of existence, and we wanted to access that state of stillness in Shiva. Right? Immortality. What is immortality? It's. To me, it's the maintaining of the awareness of the golden thread of consciousness that passes from one incarnation to the next. [01:05:45] Speaker A: That's good. The golden thread of consciousness. Yeah. I feel that I don't even have anything to say that, to be honest, man, I just got to sit with that one. [01:06:02] Speaker B: That's okay. [01:06:02] Speaker A: We could just sit, too, take a breath on that. Yeah. [01:06:23] Speaker B: At some point, though, I lost awareness of mine. I mean, I'm sitting here telling you that I don't remember what I was doing before I came here. So why. Why did I lose track of golden thread? But, you know, I could see instances of this in my own life. Like if I'm playing a video game and I create a character, okay? That that character is born into this realm. Let's say I'm playing Skyrim, okay? And I'm making an orc barbarian, okay? Well, I'm the operating consciousness of this form that exists within this contained universe of this game, okay. When that character dies and I turn the game off, you know, my awareness of the threat of consciousness that gave animation to that form continues into my body, right? So it's a Demonstration. We talk about tantra being exploration of consciousness utilizing the physical world as a foundation. Well, you can experience incarnation and reincarnation and the observation of the golden thread of consciousness through video games. You can create a character incarnate, you can manipulate the actions of that character. It dies, you turn off the game, but yet you remain. There is an operating consciousness for this body. It's just that we're not so consciously or we're not so actively aware of that conscious expression. [01:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah, I think that's part of the design. Want to call it design? That's part of the cycle is the forgetting. Because if we remembered all of our past incarnations, it would lose the fun. There's a part of the fun or the thrill or enjoyment of forgetting and then picking up that golden thread again, right. There's a part of us that has to stay with the. The stillness with. Of the forgetting, you know, to let it all go. But the regaining of it is also what makes the incarnation, the next incarnation, very glorious. Right. It's like the. It's the rebirth, essentially. The rebirth, I would say is the. Is the regaining of that thread is like picking up where you left off, right. Remembering things that. That you are aligned with previously and aligning yourself again to it. And that's all intuitive. I think that goes beyond the mind stuff, beyond, like rational, beyond intellect. That if there is, you know, some sort of golden thread that we link up to, which I do believe there is, it's like just through felt experience, like there is a felt resonance in things that I feel I've done before with people that I've known before, just interests that I've had before. There is, it seems like just something guiding me along this thread and it goes beyond what my mind wants to say. It's somehow. It's like not associated. I mean, it is and it isn't. But I would. I'll say it this way, it's not associated with the specific individual, individualized consciousness of just Gary. So there's like certain parts of Gary that. That are prevalent, that are relevant, that were also relevant in previous lifetimes that I think we pick up on. So it's like Gary brings a unique flavor. It's weird talking third person, but bear with me here. I hate when people talk in third person, but I have to for this point. So there's. There's unique parts of Gary that come about that. That are novel upon that golden thread. So it's like only Gary could, like, expand upon that golden thread. But also simultaneously, I'm regaining Through the individualized consciousness that, like, collective karma that I had through. Or Dharma that I've had through previous incarnations. That's what I feel. It's like, Gary is here. Like, why are we reincarnating? I guess that's like, the question. Like, why do we come back? It's to novelize. I don't know if that's a word is to novelize the experience is to novelize the thread. It's to thread new threads. It's to thread new pathways. It's the. To make it a different experience than it could be before. A more enjoyable experience than it could be before. That's how I feel the golden thread is. It's like, again, simultaneously recognizing the patterns of the past, but also sowing new seeds amidst those patterns. [01:11:03] Speaker B: I really like that. Yeah, that's good. Yeah. Well, it's. It's like, why do people play video games? You know, they want to have an experience. [01:11:14] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. And why do we level up? Because we want to. We want to utilize, not utilize. It's like, why do we level up our character? Why do we get different accolades and amenities to our character? It's to build upon the experience. You don't want to stay at level one because once you get to level 20, you get different abilities. You can fight different people, go to different levels. You can expand upon it. So I think that golden thread of consciousness is the expansion of experience, the expansion of novelty. And the beautiful part of it is, as we said before, is it never ends. The novelty never ends. It's exponential. It's. It builds upon itself. And hallelujah to that. Like, this experience that we all have, that me and you have Skyler and anyone listening is novel. It's never happened before. And it's built upon the previous golden threads. I think if you're linked up to the Dharma. If not, then you're just caught in the cycles of stuff that you've done before. But I think the point of this whole thing is, like, once you are. Once you are, like, attuned to this golden thread of consciousness, you're. You're just building a better experience for yourself through the lifetimes. You know what I mean? [01:12:24] Speaker B: Right? You're tailoring the experience to your desires. You become the weaver. [01:12:30] Speaker A: That's it. Tantra. [01:12:32] Speaker B: Tantra. That's it. And it comes full circle. Exactly. [01:12:36] Speaker A: Exactly. Yeah. Tantra Nanda. I like that name. I don't know if anyone has that name, but I've had that name, like, ringing in my mind. I'm like, tantrananda I like that. It flows. [01:12:49] Speaker B: That's a really good name. [01:12:51] Speaker A: You're weaving bliss. [01:12:52] Speaker B: Yeah. That's beautiful. [01:12:54] Speaker A: Right? [01:12:55] Speaker B: Maybe you should take that on. [01:12:57] Speaker A: I thought about donning it, but, you know, in Indian tradition, it's like your guru gives you Tantrananda. So it's like you can't give yourself your name. That's a good name, right? [01:13:08] Speaker B: Who do you consider to be your guru? [01:13:12] Speaker A: I don't have one guru. I have. I see the guru in everybody, or at least try to. Like, my guru is you. Right now, whoever I'm in the midst of, I try to see the guru, but in terms of, like, personified gurus that I like to learn from, number one is Ram Dass. You know, the classics, Buddha, Jesus, we can go through them. But Krishna, the Bhagavad Gita, all the sages from the Upanishads, Many, many different teachers. But if I had one, I would say it's Ram Dass. And then you want to expand that. It's Neem Karoli Baba. If you really want to expand that, It's Hanuman. [01:13:45] Speaker B: Ah, yes. Very good. Yeah. I could see the Hanuman essence in you. The devotion. [01:13:51] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [01:13:53] Speaker B: The bhakti, for sure. [01:13:55] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:13:56] Speaker B: Well, if you'll accept it, I'll call you Tantrananda. That can be your name. [01:14:01] Speaker A: We'll see. I have to sleep on that one. I like it. Yeah, I'll have to sleep on that. [01:14:06] Speaker B: It's good. I think it fits you. I think it fits you very well. Well, I watch the way that you observe ideas and you. And you do follow threads. That's what you do. [01:14:16] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:14:16] Speaker B: You did a very good job. This is a wonderful conversation that we've had because I've been able to. I really. I enjoy the opportunity to be able to demonstrate in real time what it means to explore consciousness, which is what we've done during this time. And we had to follow a golden thread of meaning through the entire conversation, which you did a very good job of providing a platform for us to do that. So. Yeah, I think the name fits. [01:14:51] Speaker A: Thank you, man. I gotta look it up, see if anybody else has it. It's gonna be original. [01:14:58] Speaker B: There's. There's so. There's so many. Many. [01:15:01] Speaker A: Yeah, right? There's so many Ram Dasses. [01:15:03] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:15:03] Speaker A: You know how many Ram Dasses there are? Yeah, Baba Ram Dass. But, yeah, that's exactly what I've done. That I've never really spoke of, that nobody else has really ever spoke of to me is following Threads. So I have threads in my head, right? I have a notebook in my head of points that people say. I'm like, all right, keep that in there. We'll follow that thread. And I always call them threads, too, which is funny. I. I call them like, all right, we're gonna go off of that thread. Yeah, off of that thread. So, yeah, makes sense. [01:15:30] Speaker B: I'm doing physical manifestation of the thread right now too. You got your cap, you got your sweater, you got your beard, everything. [01:15:37] Speaker A: It's the ambit. [01:15:38] Speaker B: You are the thread. [01:15:38] Speaker A: You are the thread. Is there. I am the thread. Is. Is there a Sanskrit word for thread? Because I know weaving is tasha, but there's got to be something that's aligned. [01:15:49] Speaker B: Thread, thread. I don't know. I'm not sure. I'm not really good with Sanskrit. I know what I know for what I work with, but I'm not a Sanskrit scholar by any means. But I'm not sure if there's. I'm sure. Well, I know there. There is a word for thread in Sanskrit. Sanskrit is such a sophisticated language. There would be a word for thread specifically. Probably like 20 words for thread. But I can't recall any off the top of my mind, nor am I sure if I ever knew one to begin with. [01:16:21] Speaker A: Well, I'll look it up afterwards. I'll put it on the bottom of the screen for everybody. Great. [01:16:25] Speaker B: You fill up the screen with, like, 30 definitions of. [01:16:32] Speaker A: Well. Hey, Skyler, I think this is a good note to wrap this up at. This was a beautiful conversation. You're an awesome guy. This was very enjoyable, and, yeah, I thank you so much. I bow to you for coming on here. [01:16:42] Speaker B: Oh, thank you very much, and you're welcome. And I bow to you as well. You're a wonderful, gracious host, and this is a wonderful conversation. I really thoroughly enjoyed it, which, by my own admission, is why I'm here to begin with. [01:16:56] Speaker A: Amen. Amen, brother. Well, keep up the good work. I wish you all the best, and peace and love to you, man. [01:17:02] Speaker B: Thank you so much, and best wishes. [01:17:04] Speaker A: To you for sure. Thank you, man. Peace and love, everybody.