From Medicine to Mindfulness: The Human Curriculum with Dr. William Berk

[00:00:00] Speaker A: First of all, Dr. William Burke, thank you for joining me today. [00:00:03] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me. [00:00:06] Speaker A: For sure, man. So, yeah, getting this thing started, would you be able to give us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Exactly. [00:00:14] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. As it relates to this. I was raised in New York City in a family of yogis. We went to an ashram growing up called Siddha Yoga. Like had a guru meditating since I was like three or four and kind of went the other way afterwards. I got a chemistry degree and then did pharmaceutical development, neuro pharmaceutical and electrophysiology work before medical school. And then I'm now an ER doctor. I've been working in New York city as an ER doctor for about 10 years. Also, like, in line with this, I also teach a course about how to love yourself and be present with your emotions. I found in my journey that. Yeah. That there was just a lot of seeking, a lot of trying to fix myself. And I. I imagine your listeners may understand this journey themselves, that there's a certain amount of like, looking to find the way out through status or the next job or the next relationship or the next teacher, the next practice and whatever it. And so I feel like I did that with medicine and research and. And then tried to do that with spirituality only just to find that, you know, the answer was actually right here. Just being present, just rewriting patterns of self hate and. Yeah, just being with it. [00:01:47] Speaker A: So just being with it, being in the moment. [00:01:49] Speaker B: Yeah, well, being with the moment consciously in a way that like you would. It's a lot of like re parenting work, I guess, like not just being present. You know. Meditation can also be very dissociative. Like, I don't want to be with this thing, but instead when you can actually be with it lovingly, it can move through you. Yeah. And then settle down into meditation. [00:02:17] Speaker A: So you were born pretty much in a dharmic household, right. You were born a yogi in some way. [00:02:26] Speaker B: Yeah, well, I. We're all born yogis, I'm sure of that. Yeah. But yeah, yeah, born. Yeah. At least with the path being a little more clear. [00:02:40] Speaker A: So how did that shape you? Because I feel, to me that's so foreign. Right. I think a lot of us have to sort of stumble into the path. I did. At least. My parents don't know anything about yoga. They still think I'm crazy, probably being a yogi and, you know, talking to these weird people on the Internet. So that's so foreign to me. Like being born with people that are literally welcome you onto the path, the path of Dharma. How did that shape you into who you are now? Do you say that was a great help or maybe a hindrance? [00:03:15] Speaker B: It's interesting. Like. Like, kids are always going to go the other way, right? So. [00:03:20] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [00:03:21] Speaker B: You know, once I had the ability to discern what this was, I feel like I kind of went the other direction, you know, like, as I said, I did chemistry and, like, medicine and kind of went the other way. I would always meditate, like, in times of stress or, like, if I got in trouble. But, yeah, I didn't really come back to it until 2021, when I was a doctor and after Covid, and I was just, like, so deeply burnt out that I was like, okay, yeah, maybe I've been pushing this, like, I don't know, the American dream or, like, thinking that I could find my way out materially. But it was nice to have a little bit of that, like, back in the memory, like, oh, yeah, okay. Maybe there. There is a path that looks different than accumulation or winning. [00:04:20] Speaker A: Yeah, winning. [00:04:21] Speaker B: Winning. [00:04:22] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Yeah. That's so interesting, because I've heard that from many, many people. Many people have made it, per se. [00:04:30] Speaker B: Right. [00:04:32] Speaker A: And, you know, when you get to that point that you've yearned for for years, it's like, now what? [00:04:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:04:43] Speaker A: And I guess the now what is the spiritual path. [00:04:46] Speaker B: Honestly, I mean, they're. Yeah. I think to some degree, we have to do it, and we have to find out how hollow it really is when we get there. [00:04:56] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Jim Carrey has this quote, and you probably know it. It's like, I wish everybody could get rich and famous. So they. Hold on. I'm gonna look it up just verbatim. [00:05:04] Speaker B: No, it's. [00:05:05] Speaker A: You probably know what I'm talking about. [00:05:06] Speaker B: I mean, I understand the idea. [00:05:08] Speaker A: Yeah. Hold on. I want to get it word for word. I don't want to mess it up. I think everybody should get rich and famous and do everything they ever dreamed of so they can see that it's not the answer. [00:05:23] Speaker B: Oh, man. [00:05:24] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:25] Speaker B: Totally. Totally. [00:05:27] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:28] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think I was really lucky, you know, in terms of medical school. And then you get the next thing and the next thing, and you're like, how many times am I gonna get the next thing and still be deeply unhappy. Yeah. And I was really lucky to find that. I think, too, because a lot of people think that it's a. It's around the next corner, and when you moving, you never just sit with. [00:05:54] Speaker A: What is, you know, now how has your Spiritual inclinations affected your work, you know? Do you feel as though you're more patient and more compassionate? [00:06:06] Speaker B: Yeah. So cool. Yeah. But the compassion is, like. How do you. How do you put this? Like, my practice right now is just loving what is. And so whatever I can love internally is also what I can love externally. So it's made me more compassionate, I guess, in that I love you no matter the tantrum you're throwing or no matter kind of how, like, ugly or raw this is. I do my best to love that. But also, like, the emergency room is an amazing place to get triggered. It's like. Yeah, yeah. Like, people are doing horrendous shit. Can I swear? [00:07:00] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. Say whatever you want. [00:07:02] Speaker B: People are doing horrible things, you know, Like. Yeah, I. I used to work at the receiving hospital for Bellevue, which is the. The big prison system in. Or it's the big jail system in the city. [00:07:18] Speaker A: And. [00:07:19] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, people were. Were tough to love. My spiritual practice, like, loving that, especially loving that even harder. Yeah. Yeah. And so. Yeah, it's amazing to be on this path and be in that setting and, like, love first and listen second, almost like. Yeah. Because, like, everyone's freaking out. I mean, the emergency room is, like, the place you go on your worst day, and so people are having their worst moment of their lives oftentimes. [00:07:52] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:07:53] Speaker B: And I love getting to be that. Like, okay, like, I hear you. I'm not trying to fix this necessarily. Even, like, I'm just trying to be here with you in this moment and then do all I can. But it's not for me to fix. [00:08:08] Speaker A: I mean, if you were my doctor in the yard. Oh, okay. I'm gonna be all right. Yeah. [00:08:14] Speaker B: And more than anything, it's just, like, I'm on your side, and I'm here to be with you in it. Yeah. Which is what people are looking for almost more than. I mean, given the antibiotic or whatever. But it's like, you want to know, Emotional support. Yeah. Someone's on your side. Like, you've got. Yeah. I think in this. In this country, at least, like, it's very easy to feel like you don't have a team. [00:08:41] Speaker A: Yeah. That's very powerful. Yeah. And even the people that are trying to help you in the healthcare system might not even be on your side. [00:08:49] Speaker B: Who. Is anyone on your side? Like, you know, I think we live in this. Like, I need to fight for myself so that I can eke out anything that's. That's my own. Yeah. And everyone's burnt out, and everyone's tired and everyone's in their own stuff and. And yeah. I mean, so rare. Do we actually just get to be with one another fully? [00:09:13] Speaker A: Yeah. Right. And being with somebody I can imagine, or at least attempting to be there, present with somebody emotionally, spiritually in the error is such a test. Right. I feel like it was part of your sadhana. Right. Do you feel as though, like, being in that was part of your test of your. Like, your resilience or your vigor or your fortitude? [00:09:41] Speaker B: Tests are just like, sweet practice? Yeah, yeah. [00:09:45] Speaker A: That's a better word, I think. Practice. [00:09:48] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And it still is. I still. I work one week a month in the er. I do something that I call Doctors within borders where I fly around to different hospitals that desperately, like, that really need a doctor, like, right now. So right now, actually, tomorrow I fly to Wisconsin and I work in, like, an ER in the middle of nowhere. I'm just the guy. It's really fun. [00:10:14] Speaker A: Yeah. And you never know what you're going to get yourself into. [00:10:16] Speaker B: Right? Oh, gosh. I mean, not just like, in these places, but like. Like, yeah, I'm like, delivering babies in the parking lot or her, you know, telling people they have cancer. It's. It's. It's an incredible job. [00:10:30] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. [00:10:31] Speaker B: The best. It's. [00:10:33] Speaker A: It's unique karma, that's for sure. Unique karma in Dharma. Yeah. Now, what is your background? What is your, like, spiritual practice or what are the modalities, you know, the lineages that you follow? Yeah, yeah. That's the question. [00:10:51] Speaker B: So many. So, yeah, as I was kind of alluding to, I. I did all the things, like, I looked for my wholeness or, like, love for myself in. In medicine and the degrees. And then. And then in drugs and sex and relationships and in gambling. In money. Yeah. The world. In the world. And then 2021, like, deeply. Yeah. Just. Just really struggling, like, I can't possibly look any harder. And then started on this on. On a much deeper spiritual quest. So the original yoga that, like, my parents practiced was very, like, right hand Shaivite, non, dual. Everything is God experiencing God. And that's like, finally what I'm coming around to. Like, that's. That's really what I'm doing now, which is very, like, Raja, very like Giana Sankhya, but, like, with. With practice. And so. But I. I took like, a real voyage. So I started facilitating sound meditations. I did like, a real psychedelic journey, men's work, tantra, like a real dive into classical left hand, like Kaola tantra. And then also, like, The Neo Tantra, Western energy, Shakti stuff. So I did that for, like, three years, like, quite devotedly. This is going to sound totally crazy, but I think you're game for that. [00:12:33] Speaker A: Yep. [00:12:34] Speaker B: In 2024, I. I had to have reconstructive heart surgery. And I think that was like. I was just worshiping Kali like, an hour a day, just, like, in it. And I think that was just, like, the effects of that stuff. So I put that away after the heart surgery. I was like, this is. I'm, like, begging the goddess to kill me for my. Like, for my realization. Right. And so ultimately, it was amazing. Like, I opened my heart literally, figuratively. [00:13:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:13:07] Speaker B: But. But yeah. Anyway, the. The Tantra stuff got too real, and so now. Now I do very. You know, the philosophy now is like, I was doing all this stuff to move Shakti, like, energy, and now the. Now the philosophy is like, Kali is dancing on. On. On Shiva, right? Have you seen these, like, statues? Like, the classic Kali is, like, forearms, like. Yeah. Like, dancing on Shiva, right. And Shiva is in repose, like, unflinching, just purely there. And so my philosophy now is like, come to a place of no mind, of presence, full presence, and allow Shakti to come through. Allow life to live through you in a place from no mind. Allow the world to move you from this really authentic, present, unfiltered life that is you. That is, like your. Your brilliant authenticity, your perfect authenticity, and allow the world to move through you. So, like, working with that, that's kind of. Yeah, that's where I'm at with my. My spiritual practice. [00:14:18] Speaker A: So it's allow the world to move through you rather than have the world move you. [00:14:23] Speaker B: Ooh. Well, hard to say. You are the world. I mean, it's like, indistinguishable. Be no one so that you can be everyone. [00:14:32] Speaker A: Be. [00:14:33] Speaker B: Be fully. How do I put this? Yeah. Like, don't. Don't worry that the world's not going to receive you, because you are that. And, like. And if you can be with the painful bits as much, you can release them, love them, and then you can love everything. Yeah. And so it's just. It's. It's winding through the world without reservation. Being fully alive. [00:15:04] Speaker A: That's powerful. [00:15:04] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:15:06] Speaker A: Do you think that is the destination, per se? If there is a destination, like, where we're going, what we're doing this all for is to be in the world and not of it. And while we are in it, we love it. That rhyme, that was really nice. Yeah, that was off the top. [00:15:21] Speaker B: That was like Swami Dr. Seuss. I mean, be of the world. It like get like be of the. The world's here for us to enjoy, but it's. I think it's just be unattached. Don't let your ego decide what you need. Allow the world to provide. Just be in the flow. Be full of yourself, which is not conditioned by old thoughts or present thoughts. I mean, thought, my understanding is like thought is always in the future or in the past. And to be fully present is to be without thought and just be with the life as it comes. And. And if that life that comes is gold watches and. And cocaine in the strip club, God bless you, you know, but all I'm saying is that nothing is wrong. Like the world is not wrong. There's no, there's no morality necessarily, like in, in the path. It's just like you don't want to necessarily decide. That's the goal. [00:16:32] Speaker A: Yeah, that's where you get now, that's very tantric. There's no right or wrong. Everything is permitted. [00:16:37] Speaker B: Everything is permitted, but only if it arrives naturally. [00:16:45] Speaker A: That's good. [00:16:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:16:47] Speaker A: So you don't force it. [00:16:48] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it's in the forcing, which is in the ego, which is in the mind, which is in the past, which never be fully bliss present. [00:16:59] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. I think that is the truth. 100% what we just described. But there seems to be a correlation of. Once you get on this wavelength, what comes to you in the world most likely is not the strippers, the co, the benders. Right. So it's like, yeah, be with everything. But there also is a change in your life and the energy that comes to you for sure. It's like, yeah, you can embrace it all if you want to, but. But it's not going to be like that. There is still like a change. Just because you can embrace it all doesn't mean what you should embrace. How do I put this? You know what I'm getting at here, though? [00:17:48] Speaker B: Definitely, yeah. [00:17:49] Speaker A: It's hard to explain, but it's like. [00:17:51] Speaker B: It'S not things you want you used to think you wanted that you end up really enjoying. [00:17:56] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really all it is, is you start to attract different things in your life. [00:18:00] Speaker B: Definitely, definitely. Yeah, yeah. [00:18:03] Speaker A: And it's really a simplification, I feel. It's like rather than adding more, rather than, you know, all the hedonism of the world that maybe you once yearned for, it's more like, what do I not need? Very monk like, actually. Yeah, it's slowing down and realizing actually you don't need anything. But the fruits do come and go for sure. Because we still have karma. We still have karma to reap. So there's still stuff that comes up, but I think eventually you get to a point where it's just very simple. I'll keep it at that. [00:18:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:18:41] Speaker A: Life becomes very simple, and that's just natural as well. You don't force that. You can't force simplicity either. [00:18:49] Speaker B: Well, I think it becomes simple because you're not, like, making it complicated. Like I said, you can just be present. Yeah. I mean, if a chocolate croissant comes my way, I'm gonna. I'm gonna mess with it. But, like, yeah, I'm not. I'm not looking for anything special. It's also, like, when you're present, like, birds are amazing. Like. [00:19:11] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:19:12] Speaker B: I'm just with these guys. They're all like, go. I was out. They're this morning. It's like, these birds are all together. It's like, in wild. But I don't need anything more than that. [00:19:22] Speaker A: Right. [00:19:23] Speaker B: Yeah. It's like there's so much incredible earth, so. Yeah. Yeah. I feel you. It's. My life's become much less complicated. [00:19:35] Speaker A: Yeah. You see the miracle in. [00:19:37] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:19:38] Speaker A: Existence itself. [00:19:39] Speaker B: Yeah. Especially around relationships. Like, I know who I am and I know what I need, and so I can just let you know that. And also, I know I have myself, so I don't, like, I don't need to act like I'm someone different. Yeah. It's like I've just found in my relationships that things have become much less complicated because I can just say, hey, you know, I'm. This is what I'm looking for. This is who I am. And. [00:20:08] Speaker A: And. [00:20:10] Speaker B: And leave that up to you to take that or leave that without my attachment. Yeah. [00:20:16] Speaker A: Yeah. I think that's what's really important in how we change on the spiritual path, is how we relate to each other. [00:20:23] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:20:24] Speaker A: Really well. And it's just more loving, ideally, how. [00:20:28] Speaker B: We relate to ourselves ultimately. Like, there's a version of this that's kind of maybe nihilistic, but, like, you don't exist. You are just a projection of all of my histories and things that I'm placing on you. And the world is only a projection. Of what? Of stuff that's happening in my brain ultimately. So if I can love my stuff, then I can love you. Because I'm going to project generosity and kindness and beauty onto you. The beauty part's easy in your case. [00:21:05] Speaker A: Thanks. [00:21:08] Speaker B: But yeah. Yeah. But also, like, the negative stuff that I'm holding on to is going to get projected all over the world too, if that's what exists within me. [00:21:20] Speaker A: That's a good point. It almost becomes quantum. Right? You almost can start to see how you're creating this entire thing for yourself, even in other people. I mean, you don't have full will over others. Like, you couldn't make me do anything I don't want to do. But definitely in your resonance, you affect me. And in my resonance, I affect you. [00:21:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Oh, my gosh. Totally. And also, like, I'm. I can never make you do anything, but. Yeah, but. Right. But, like, the vibe that I'm giving to you will make you either glow or shrink. Yeah, yeah. Move in or move away. Now, I really do believe that we create this world. I mean, that is a truism. Like, the collective creates this world. But, like, yeah, we to a large degree are creating the worlds that we are in. [00:22:14] Speaker A: That's a deep truth. [00:22:15] Speaker B: That's so true. Yeah. So. And. Yeah, and when people are, like, you know, angry at the world, it's. It's often just. The world's gonna continue to show you that. That thing that, you know, that it's worth being angry at, I guess. Does that make sense? [00:22:34] Speaker A: It's all a mirror. [00:22:35] Speaker B: It's all a mirror. There we go. There we go. [00:22:38] Speaker A: It's our reflection. [00:22:40] Speaker B: Yes. As above, so below. [00:22:42] Speaker A: Yeah, man, totally. [00:22:47] Speaker B: Totally. [00:22:48] Speaker A: It's really, like, it comes down to accountability. I think you can get to a point through that simplicity that we spoke on before, is accountability. Or maybe the other way around is like, the simplicity comes into your life because you realize the accountability that you hold for your own life. So you're like, I gotta. Like, I gotta get out of my own way. I gotta chill. You know? And I think, really, that is the culmination of the spiritual path in all versions of it. You know, you could say it's Buddhist, yogic, Tantric, really. I think it comes down to saying, well, I'm creating this mess. I might have done it many lifetimes ago as well. So I have to figure this out. I have to sort this out or else I'm gonna keep suffering. So, yeah, man, accountability is what it's all about. [00:23:46] Speaker B: I think, like, the measure of where someone is on their path is how much they can embody the idea of their triggers being treasures. Like, I'm sure you've heard this concept. Just that, like, what I'm seeing in the outside world is really just a reflection of me. And if I'm triggered by something or. Or some. I don't. Like someone or something happens that I. I don't. Yeah. It's like. And I'm not saying, like, violence is your fault, something like that, but like, in. In so much as, like, I. I didn't like when they said this or something like that. That's something that, in you is still unresolved. So, yeah, every time I get triggered, I'm like, yes, yes. What is this thing about me? What is this saying about something that I have yet to fully feel. Fully. [00:24:39] Speaker A: Exactly. [00:24:39] Speaker B: Forgive or be compassionate towards? [00:24:42] Speaker A: Yeah, I love it. [00:24:44] Speaker B: Yeah. I've got, like, a list I make, like, note cards. Yeah. It's. It really is a thing that. Yeah. To me, it's a treasure. It's like. It's like. It's a way of looking inside. It's a trailhead. Yeah. [00:25:00] Speaker A: I mean, that's also a destination of the path, is seeing how everything is for you. Everything is for our growth. [00:25:07] Speaker B: 100. [00:25:09] Speaker A: Right. That might sound corny and cliche, I'm pretty sure we've all heard that before, but it really is the truth, man. Yeah. You know, from this vantage point, it's like, well, how is this? How. How is this? You turn it around. You turn the camera lens back on itself. [00:25:22] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:25:23] Speaker A: Through every situation. Ideally, I'm not perfect, definitely. You know, there's a lot of times where I'm like, this guy. Why'd he say this to me? I still take the victim mindset, but. [00:25:31] Speaker B: Right. [00:25:32] Speaker A: Work in progress. [00:25:34] Speaker B: And it's hard. It's like. Yeah, it's hard because our patterns are pushing us towards the opposite, but. Yeah. As much as we can. [00:25:43] Speaker A: But the opposite is what pushes us in. [00:25:45] Speaker B: Yeah. It all comes around. Yeah. For sure. For sure. [00:25:50] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:25:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. But we'll keep learning the lesson into. Or we'll keep getting the lesson until we learn it. [00:25:56] Speaker A: That's it. [00:25:58] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And it's tough, too, because you don't really know how to. I don't know. At least I was never taught how to be with difficult emotions. I was always taught, like, meditate, don't feel, whatever. But a big part of what I teach now is just, how do you listen to an emotion as it arises? How do you honor it? Thank it for showing up, even when you've labeled it as bad or difficult or, like, uncomfortable. Honor it. Love it. Update it. [00:26:34] Speaker A: Update it. [00:26:34] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Because, like, you know, I. I believe that we're, like, so heavily conditioned by our childhood, and maybe no matter what, like, there's no Perfect parents. And there's no. Yeah, there's no, like, no. No one comes out of the womb as a Buddha, I don't think. Or perhaps we come out of the womb as a Buddha. We're conditioned in the world in, in any number of ways. Like, you know, and, and then we have patterns and those patterns need to be rewritten. But it's really hard. It's hard to like, love the thing we've been running away from for a decade. Two or three. Yeah. But once we can hard. Just sit with it. I mean, it's hard. It's also just like, how do you love a kid who's crying? You know, you just have perspective, like, oh, this is someone who's hurt. This is someone who's, who just needs a little bit of love. That's it. [00:27:33] Speaker A: Just a little bit of love. [00:27:34] Speaker B: Just a little bit of love. Yeah. [00:27:36] Speaker A: We all have that hurt child within us. That's the thing. [00:27:40] Speaker B: Totally. Yeah. And. And we label that child as wrong or bad or what have you. And then just. Yeah. Coming back to it, coming to like, oh, that's all you are. You're not some big demon that's ruling my life that, you know, and maybe you have to get my attention in a way that's. That hasn't been. Hasn't been like, hasn't been positive or hasn't been well adjusted. You know, I, for instance, like every time I feel frustrated or every time I feel like lonely or a feeling, I reach for the Ben and Jerry's. And so I like, hate that part of me, but then it's the only way out. And then I like, I create this like great polarization around it, but just recognizing that everyone's just there trying to do their best, take care of you. Sometimes these are like little 4 year olds who just, yeah. Have a tough job and you just love them, you listen to them and when they come up and then you honor them and let them go, let them know that you don't have to go for the Ben and Jerry's every time. We can have it as a treat. [00:28:57] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah. It's like, okay, if you do go for the Ben and Jerry's or whatever vice comes up, it's okay. It's okay. But ideally, don't go for the Ben and Jerry's every time. Right. You're balancing forgiveness, you know, humility, but also not neglecting the idea of growth and, you know, changing one's ways. [00:29:20] Speaker B: Well, it's like, what, what are we trying to run away from? Or what are we Covering up by doing that knee jerk action. [00:29:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:29:30] Speaker B: Being with that. And then if we want to have Ben and Jerry's, amazing. But it's not as a distraction. It's out of a pleasure, out of a joy. [00:29:38] Speaker A: Yeah. It's big difference there. [00:29:40] Speaker B: It's a huge difference. Yeah. Yeah. Because the. If it's out of a distraction, it's just gonna perpetuate a cycle and then it's gonna come back. [00:29:49] Speaker A: I feel that. [00:29:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. So I have a rule in myself. I said if I want to do something that has in the past been, like, maladaptive, I like cigarettes or pornography or like, yeah, go get a pint of Ben and Jerry's and watch television, text your ex, any of these things that are for sure not helpful. And you know that I have a five minute timer. Here we go. I got my green five minute timer. I set the timer. And then I sit with the emotion that I'm trying to actually run away from by going into that action and I feel it. Like, I really let it fucking go. Like, if it needs to, like, punch some stuff, I go with the pillow on the bed or like, yeah, whatever it is. Whatever that feeling. I really sit with it. [00:30:48] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:30:48] Speaker B: And then after, if it's like, you want to go do those things. Yeah, yeah, go for it. But it's not out of running away. It's not a distraction. [00:30:57] Speaker A: That's so wise, bro. [00:31:01] Speaker B: It's only because I messed up a thousand times. [00:31:05] Speaker A: Yeah, I feel you, man. That's so wise, though. It goes from reacting immaturely to responding maturely. [00:31:15] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:31:16] Speaker A: That's how we change our ways. [00:31:17] Speaker B: Yeah. And. And maybe after those five minutes, the thing is like, I still want it. It's like, okay, at least you were heard. At least you felt. Yeah, yeah. [00:31:28] Speaker A: At least you recognize that's half the battle. [00:31:32] Speaker B: Oh, my gosh. Yeah. I think that's 99 of the battle. I think 99. [00:31:38] Speaker A: Becoming aware. [00:31:39] Speaker B: If you are aware and you're not blended with this thing, like, it's not. You don't. It's all just like, I am experiencing anger. I am not angry. You know, just that distinction where you become a little bit more of the witness. Everything dissolves. It's like, that's it there. It's true. Yeah, yeah. [00:32:01] Speaker A: It's so simple. And we're explaining it here now. And I'm like, yeah, of course. Huh? 100%. But then, you know, Satan comes in and. [00:32:09] Speaker B: No, no, say. I'm just saying things that are trying to help. [00:32:16] Speaker A: No, I like, Yeah, I guess. [00:32:18] Speaker B: Yeah, it's the only thing I'm going to take a stand on. Like, there are no demons. There are no, like, you know, the demon of lust is like. No, it's just. It's just a pattern that you use. And when you. When you say it, I. I don't know if you're being serious about it. [00:32:35] Speaker A: But, like, I was making a joke. [00:32:36] Speaker B: Okay. Well, it's something I really. When people, like, are like, yeah, I got to get this out of me. It's like that thing is just going to get louder. That thing is just going to be aggressive to do what it. What it feels like it needs to do to do its job. [00:32:53] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:32:53] Speaker B: And so when you take an. Like, a stance that it's bad, it's going to feel bad, and it's going to keep being, like, a bad kid. And like, when. You know, the worst thing I think is when a kid labels themselves as bad, because then it's like, fuck it, I don't have to do anything. Like, I don't have to be a. I don't have to get better because I'm just bad. But I run into this a lot with the. With the work that I do. Like, people have really, like, labeled these things as evil, get them out, exercise them or whatever, but when you can meet them with compassion, that's funny. That's when it dissolves. [00:33:29] Speaker A: So that's a good point. [00:33:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:33:34] Speaker A: Because if you do label something as bad or the devil or you got demons, then it doesn't really help you work through it. [00:33:43] Speaker B: No. [00:33:44] Speaker A: It's just repression. [00:33:45] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, we know. Like, hate breeds hate. Fighting war breeds fighting in war. Yeah. There's no end to that. But there is. I mean, and. And, yeah, love turns that soil. [00:34:01] Speaker A: So that's what I was gonna say. The only way is love, man. [00:34:05] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. I mean, really, really starts with ourselves. [00:34:12] Speaker A: Amen. [00:34:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:34:16] Speaker A: You're a cool guy. [00:34:17] Speaker B: Yeah, you too, dude. [00:34:21] Speaker A: I'm glad we got to meet William. Damn. [00:34:24] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:34:25] Speaker A: I don't even know what to say from here. I mean, do you have anything off the top of your head you want to riff off? [00:34:28] Speaker B: We're moving to freaking India, baby. [00:34:31] Speaker A: Okay. I didn't know if you wanted to bring that up. [00:34:32] Speaker B: Let's do it. [00:34:34] Speaker A: So what's that about? You know what? Was there a calling for you to go there? What are you going there for? You know, let's get into it. [00:34:40] Speaker B: Yeah, let's do it. I want to destroy my identity. Oh, I want to destroy. I want to dissolve. I want to, like, put in the crucible, who I think I am or who I think I need to be or like all the past structures that have kept me locked into. Yeah. Into these concepts of, like, of. Of who I, Who I imagine myself to be. Because real freedom comes when you just are. [00:35:14] Speaker A: Right. [00:35:15] Speaker B: Just allow life to, to move through you. And so. Yeah. And so I'm. I'm giving up my jobs. I, I was. I'm giving up the doctor thing for the time being. I'm giving up. I, I was a clinician at a psychedelic clinic here in New York and giving that up. And I run a course called the Human Curriculum. I'm going to do that from India. It's just once a week. [00:35:41] Speaker A: Okay. [00:35:42] Speaker B: And. Yeah. And I'm gonna go, like, wander the desert in Rajasthan with a friend, teacher and, and just stop doing. Stop being. Stop being the guy who needs to respond to your email in 24 hours or less. You know, Stop. You know, whatever. All these, like, these layers of me that I built to maybe accomplish some goal. You know, I thought through, I managed, I conceptualized so that I could do something. And so, yeah, so I'm getting out. Full send to. To becoming Noah. [00:36:28] Speaker A: No more William Burke. I mean, like, you got more Dr. William Burke. [00:36:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I'll still be a doctor. It's funny. It's. I have a crazy story. I, I, I made this realization that I was going to have to move, get out of my life in order to rebuild my life, like, all of my life. And so I was, like, kicking around the park. It was like, oh, I think I became a doctor to become a wizard. And now I have. Now I have to stop being a doctor in order to be the wizard that I wanted to be. I say wizard, like, loosely. I just, like, do live the magic of life. And, And I was kind of like, like, kind of mourning that version of my life that was the doctor that I really enjoy. Um, and as I'm, like, walking down the hill that I've made this decision on, I pass a field, and there's some boys in the field, and. And one of the boys is laying down, like, in a weird position. I'm like, oh, is he, Is he gonna be okay? So I stand there for a bit, like, he's either gonna get up or he's not. And he doesn't. And so I like, kind of march over there, like, hey, I'm Willie Burke. I'm an ER doctor. And this kid has just, like, broken his arm in a. Like, I don't I guess looking back at the X ray, it was like, eight or nine fractures and. And a distal dislocation. So, like, if he lifted his arm, it would just, like, it would come. Come down. And so we just, like. We just, like, scooped up his arm and, like, walked him over to the er. And he was. He was young, and so I stood stuck with him until his parents arrived. And it was so beautiful. It was like just the whole time, everyone's like, and who are you, random guy? I'm like, I'm willing Burke. I'm the ER doctor. I'm just coming through. No. Yeah, I just found him in the park. And so we like. I just, like, took this kid through this whole thing, and it was so good. So, like, it was really. It's just funny that it was like, five minutes after I decided I'm no longer a doctor, that I was, like, a doctor for two hours with this random. This random guy. Anyway, it's all just to say that we think we are doing something, and it's often just. It's often just not at all what we think. [00:39:05] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:39:05] Speaker B: So I'm gonna go to India. Maybe I'll become a Bollywood star. I don't know what I'm gonna do, but start by wandering the desert. Yeah. [00:39:17] Speaker A: Wow. [00:39:18] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. [00:39:18] Speaker A: The universe has a sense of humor in that way. [00:39:20] Speaker B: Yeah, the universe really is. Yeah. Yeah. Really does. [00:39:25] Speaker A: Just when you think, you got to figure out, like, oh, I'm gonna go to India, become a sage, a wizard, no more doctor thing. And all of a sudden, five minutes later, it's like, oh, you think? Yeah. And you're in charge here. [00:39:35] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, man. [00:39:40] Speaker A: That's funny. [00:39:43] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So that's the next step. I'm leaving in two weeks. [00:39:49] Speaker A: That's cool. [00:39:50] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:39:50] Speaker A: Now, what do you think? I mean, you already kind of explained it, but what do you think it will grant you? Just, like, this essence of freedom, like a. Just a whole switch up in your life and the narratives that you still hold, Like. Yeah. Could you get more into what you think being in India will give you as a person in terms of fulfillment, in terms of, you know, your purpose in life? What do you think you're going there for, ultimately? [00:40:21] Speaker B: What do you think? Yeah. [00:40:24] Speaker A: What do you feel, maybe? [00:40:25] Speaker B: No, I mean, I. I don't have a lot of expectations because, you know, that's kind of like, expectations will sink. [00:40:33] Speaker A: The ship, but you just know there's. [00:40:36] Speaker B: Like, a pull, there's a pole. Things opened up in a way, like, teacher dropped into my life. That just felt like Felt like the right thing to do. And then who knows what comes through when you no longer are performing for yourself or others? Who knows what comes through when you don't have to wake up and be some prepared version or some habitual version of yourself? Yeah. I'm going to India to be free. [00:41:11] Speaker A: Ah, I see. I think that's what we all yearn for in some way. [00:41:18] Speaker B: Totally. Like, how do I just be myself and that thing and. Yeah, I've. You know. Yeah, we create a lot of structures. [00:41:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I see. So it's dismantling the structures, Dissolving the structures. [00:41:36] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah. [00:41:40] Speaker A: Ironically. So it will probably only create new structures in India. [00:41:44] Speaker B: It's hard to navigate this world without structures. [00:41:47] Speaker A: Yeah, they need a little structure. But it's like, don't become too attached to the old structures. [00:41:50] Speaker B: Exactly. [00:41:51] Speaker A: Keep building. Keep on going. [00:41:53] Speaker B: And I think if I'm. [00:41:53] Speaker A: Remain fluid. [00:41:54] Speaker B: Exactly. I'm sitting in my life now in New York City. It's. I'm surrounded by the structures that I've built. I'm a prisoner in a cage of my own creation. [00:42:07] Speaker A: Damn. [00:42:08] Speaker B: Yeah, we all are. [00:42:10] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:12] Speaker B: You know, people see me as this thing, expect me to show. I mean, this is like. This is the worst part of celebrityism. Like, this is the cage of being a celebrity is like, people expect you to show up in the way that they saw on television or that you. In your YouTube talk or whatever. [00:42:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:42:33] Speaker B: So I'm not going to comb my hair. I'm not going to shave. I'm just gonna, like. I'm just gonna be. [00:42:39] Speaker A: What? Whatever. [00:42:40] Speaker B: Is not gonna perform so that people like me. You know? I don't know. Like, I think. Yeah, we. We grow up with this idea. It's like, show up in this nice, polite way, do this thing, make this money. All these. Yeah. All these structures that keep. [00:43:00] Speaker A: Yeah. And who knows? Maybe you'll get there and be like, okay, I'm all set with India and then come back. Yeah, yeah. Right. [00:43:06] Speaker B: I mean, I'm gonna. I'm not gonna move to India, I don't think. Yeah. I. I wanted to spend the summer in Gabon, so that's also, like, on my list. [00:43:18] Speaker A: What is it? Where? [00:43:19] Speaker B: Gabon. In. In Central West Africa. [00:43:24] Speaker A: Gabon. I don't Never heard of that. Is that a country? [00:43:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a country. It's. [00:43:28] Speaker A: I'm ashamed that I've never heard of Gabon. [00:43:30] Speaker B: Okay. [00:43:30] Speaker A: It's near. [00:43:31] Speaker B: It's near Congo. [00:43:36] Speaker A: Okay. [00:43:36] Speaker B: It's French A. It's where aboga comes from. [00:43:40] Speaker A: Really? [00:43:41] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:43:43] Speaker A: Interesting. [00:43:43] Speaker B: And so, yeah, I. I'VE had some powerful experiences with a boga. So yeah, I want to go hang out with those guys. Like the og. Do you know anything about aoga? A little bit. [00:43:58] Speaker A: Never done it myself. [00:43:59] Speaker B: You have done it. [00:44:00] Speaker A: I have not. [00:44:01] Speaker B: Oh, you haven't. Okay. It's wild. I. Okay. Preface to all the listeners. I am not recommending this. As a physician, I do not recommend or promote or any of this. But I don't know if you've like seen the psychedelic, the data on it as a psychedelic, but it is like it just blows the roof off of everything else in terms of neuroplasticity. And people go to these ibogaine clinics. The Bogan ibogaine are related but somewhat different. The same way like THC and marijuana. But a boga comes from the pygmies in Central Africa. And the pygmies are like the OG humans. These are like, these are small humans that live in the jungle that have not changed their ways for millennia. And. And a boga comes from these people and it's still served in this BT tradition that is, that is the tradition of the original humans. And like, the chanting's insane. The wisdom is like so. [00:45:10] Speaker A: Dirt. [00:45:10] Speaker B: It's like mud. It's like, it's like raw. It's like life. It's like that same Kali goddess energy just of the earth. It's like really delicious. And so, yeah, so my plan was like Spanish, spend the summer in with. With some like. Yeah, with some pygmies, like with some real humans. Un. [00:45:35] Speaker A: Wow. [00:45:36] Speaker B: Unfiltered humans. [00:45:39] Speaker A: I never knew that. So the pygmies are like closest to the pure Homo sapien. [00:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:45:44] Speaker A: Is what you're saying. The original Homo sapien. [00:45:46] Speaker B: Homo sapien. I mean we kind of. They're the same. Like we are the same species. Like, we can, we can still mate with them, but they're like small jungle dwelling people. [00:45:58] Speaker A: You think they would welcome you in? [00:46:01] Speaker B: I don't know. [00:46:02] Speaker A: Is it that easy to go chill with the big me? [00:46:04] Speaker B: I don't know. I just trust that, like, if I go over there, something's gonna happen. Yeah. Yeah. Wow. Yeah. [00:46:14] Speaker A: That's funny. [00:46:14] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. So Gabon. I'll see you there. [00:46:18] Speaker A: Yeah, we'll meet and hang with the Bigmy 26. [00:46:20] Speaker B: We'll do another podcast. [00:46:23] Speaker A: Yeah, right. The white men of the Pygmies. [00:46:26] Speaker B: Well, yeah, I don't know. Yeah, yeah. I think they're at least seeing what that life is like. I mean, notice, like, I must be so visceral. I want to like taste what it was to be human before. [00:46:40] Speaker A: Oh, yeah, right. [00:46:41] Speaker B: Right before we farmed, before we. And it's fascinating. Like within a pygmy tribe, there is more genetic diversity despite them being so insular. It's like there's some very interesting magic happening in Central Africa. [00:47:01] Speaker A: Yeah, man, that's the cradle. [00:47:02] Speaker B: That's the cradle. It is. Straight up. [00:47:04] Speaker A: Yeah. Us. [00:47:05] Speaker B: Exactly. Like, I want to go back 20,000 years. [00:47:10] Speaker A: It must be so visceral to be tribal like that. Right? That's psychedelic. [00:47:18] Speaker B: That's psychedelic. Yeah. 100. To like, live in the earth of the earth. Yeah. We're so divorced from that. Yeah. I mean, these people, like. Anyway. [00:47:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:47:33] Speaker B: I don't know if they. I mean, maybe I show up and it's. It's nothing like what I imagine. Which that seems to be pretty good thing. Yeah. [00:47:41] Speaker A: But. [00:47:41] Speaker B: Yeah. So India. At least until then. [00:47:44] Speaker A: Wow. [00:47:45] Speaker B: And maybe. Maybe I won't go, but I hope so. [00:47:50] Speaker A: Well, I'll just say this too, on that point. I think in order to be accustomed to that tribal lifestyle, to actually be okay with it, I guess you have to grow up in it. I don't know if we could just move there and be okay with it. It would probably be cool for like a week or two. And then we're like, all right, I'm going back to New York. I'm going back to my heated apartment with my hot water showers, you know, my comfy bed. There's no bugs. We're so far detached from that lifestyle. I feel like it would be cool as like a vacation, I guess as like a learning experience, but actually living that. I don't know. You know, I don't know. Me, personally, I don't know. [00:48:34] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, I love my French bakery. That's downstairs. [00:48:38] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. They don't got those in Africa. [00:48:42] Speaker B: They may. But attach to it. I don't know. Yeah. And what an interesting meditation it would be to like. To be in it and just see what. What happens. Yeah. [00:48:56] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:48:58] Speaker B: But, yeah, it's probably not like, where I'm gonna settle down. [00:49:02] Speaker A: Yeah. Settle down. Have a family with the Pygmies. [00:49:06] Speaker B: That would be a story. [00:49:09] Speaker A: The Pygmy King. [00:49:13] Speaker B: I mean, they're. I believe that they have, like, wisdom that we couldn't possibly have. [00:49:20] Speaker A: Yeah, right. [00:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:49:21] Speaker A: People that are of the earth. I went to Guatemala one time in Lake Atilan, and it's like the last vestige of the Mayan civilization. So unique. The people there, the whole culture, everything is colorful. It's just like a different world, man. And I hung up with the shaman. Long story. But it's just like when you are in a different world, you kind of feel the wisdom in a way that is, like, it's hard to explain. It's like, yeah, they're, they're in touch with something that we're not in touch with over here in Boston, New York. They, they're tapped into something. And essentially, I think it's the Earth. I think it's like being one with your environment that you were born into. There's something about, like, the Earth intelligence that these people haven't lost. We lost it. You know, we, we have these concrete jungles that we live in and fake nature in, like, Central park, you know, but it's like, when you're in it, then of nature, I think it grants you something that we don't have as Westerners, you know? [00:50:29] Speaker B: Yeah. Well, I'm curious. Like, on one hand, yeah, like, I believe that. On the other hand, I believe that we're like deeply vibrational beings. [00:50:36] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:50:37] Speaker B: And the whole idea of, like, vibes is very real. And how much of that is just like, the vibration of the Earth, them being just in that harmony with the earth and, like, how much can we just drop into that actually, if we go back home? And I guess that's my curiosity in going to Gabon is like, yeah. How much human is left in this? Human. [00:51:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:51:06] Speaker B: Right, yeah. [00:51:09] Speaker A: Interesting. Well, on your note of going to India and meeting with your teacher, I think that is a pivotal part of the path. Not for all of us, but I think there is something about spending time with people that are more in tune with themselves, that are wiser, maybe that are more inclined to the path that rubs off. So vibes rub off. [00:51:36] Speaker B: Yeah. Or harmonize. [00:51:37] Speaker A: Or, like, harmonize. Yeah. Sync up, align. Many different words for it. Yeah. [00:51:46] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, the best thing about a, like a guru illumines your inner wisdom and. Yeah, the best thing about being with a teacher, and I've had a number of. I've got some incredible teachers here too, is just being in their presence and like, watching them human, watching them live their lives and, and like, oh, we can do, we can do it like that by the seat of our pants and, and, and be, enjoy and, and skip through the world. [00:52:20] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:52:21] Speaker B: Yeah. I'm excited. I, I, Someone yesterday actually pointed out, like, I'm doing the Ram Dass arc. [00:52:27] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah, pretty much. [00:52:30] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. So, yeah, So I gotta go to India. [00:52:33] Speaker A: A lot of people have had that arc. [00:52:35] Speaker B: Well, it's the doctor to the psychedelic facilitator the. To the India. Not to say that I'm anything like the guy, but. But yeah, we're trying third leg. [00:52:45] Speaker A: You like Ram Dass? [00:52:46] Speaker B: Oh, who doesn't like Ram Dass? [00:52:49] Speaker A: Don't trust anyone that doesn't like Ram. [00:52:51] Speaker B: Exactly. Yes. [00:52:54] Speaker A: Yeah, I had to ask. Yeah. Ram Dass is up there for me too because he is so human. That's what I love about him is he's so tender and he doesn't take himself so seriously. But he's also very serious in the path as well. So he has this balance between humility and also wisdom. Yeah. I think he's like the teacher for the Westerner. Maybe not all of us, but I think he can appeal to a lot of us. [00:53:21] Speaker B: For sure. Totally. Yeah. I mean, yeah, he. He changed my perspective on perfection. On, on sexuality. [00:53:32] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. [00:53:32] Speaker B: He's. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:53:35] Speaker A: Right. He's just so open. He's just so like. [00:53:38] Speaker B: Oh, and nothing to hide. Yeah, yeah. [00:53:42] Speaker A: I love the guy. Shout out Ram Dass. Yeah. Also in terms of like his psychedelic advocacy because not a lot of people that are on the. Well, at least open about it in terms of being on the yogic path and into psychedelics. Right. And he's open about how much psilocybin helped him. You know, what he was doing in the 60s with Tim Leary and then being on the yogic path, the Dharma path also at the same time that's such like a. That's like I see that in me. Or maybe I learned that from him. [00:54:20] Speaker B: But. [00:54:21] Speaker A: But there's like. There's something that I think a lot of us can learn as Westerners, as Americans from Ram Dass. That's what I love about him. He's just like so relatable. Yeah, right. [00:54:35] Speaker B: Yeah. While also being so like incredibly refined. Like message is just like. It's like, it's so back down. It's so true. Yeah, yeah. And I love like. Yeah, he was very much living in this like Hanuman open heart service. It was. Yeah. Someone really to look up to. Not just for their, you know, like for instance, like a, like an Alan Watts like incredible message. Like not necessarily like lived the thing on a day to day. Yeah. Like a choking Trumpa. Like I love these like crazy wisdom teachers. Yeah. But yeah, like Ram Dass, like really you could feel like, okay. And no matter when you open, when you saw Ram Dass, he was probably just still like glowing. Ram Dass versus some of these other teachers. It's like, okay, what? What? Yeah, maybe that's not always the Case. Although maybe there's some wisdom there, too. Maybe there's, like. [00:55:41] Speaker A: Definitely. [00:55:42] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. [00:55:43] Speaker A: I think it just comes down to relatability. Right. Like a good teacher you can relate to. [00:55:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Good teacher you can relate to, or. [00:55:54] Speaker A: At least a teacher that works for you. You have to be able to relate. Relate to them. [00:55:58] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And that's the tricky thing with, like, studying all these. These Eastern traditions. [00:56:08] Speaker A: It's hard to relate. [00:56:09] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, like, I was, like, really into tantra and, like, these, like, tantrics that were, like, doing puja all day and, like. And it's like, I don't even know where that fits into my life. [00:56:20] Speaker A: Yeah, right. I'm just trying to get through the day, man, you know? [00:56:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Exactly. [00:56:25] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:25] Speaker B: You're sitting. You're sitting out there doing Joppa and Yantra and, like. [00:56:29] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:56:31] Speaker B: Where's viewpoint? Yeah. Versus this guy. Yeah. He's quite open. All the ways he's up. [00:56:39] Speaker A: Right. That's it. [00:56:40] Speaker B: That's really what changed. Like, you know, his. The way he related to, like, his lust, like that. That all of his perversions and lust, it never went away, but it just became, like, smaller voices or voices that just, like, seemed a little cuter, a little less, like, controlling. [00:57:01] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:57:01] Speaker B: Which is. Yeah. He never made pretense that he had ever conquered anything, but just changed his relationship to it. [00:57:08] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. There's a point in one of his stories where he. He literally says that. He said he did all of the things. He went to India, all the practices, modalities and things of that nature. And he said, I don't think one of my neurotic patterns has changed. [00:57:26] Speaker B: Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Smaller neuroses. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:57:35] Speaker A: Yeah, man. That's true for all of us. I mean, I'm still, you know, I've been on the path for a few years now. And that's the thing. It's like, I still have neurotic patterns. I still have things. I still have vices, but it's how we relate to them that is completely different. We don't see them as the demon anymore. [00:57:53] Speaker B: There we go. I was about to say. Yeah, exactly. Yeah, right. And they're not. They're just, like, little parts of us that are looking to help in the way that they know. [00:58:02] Speaker A: Amen. Yeah, Amen to that, man. Good stuff. [00:58:11] Speaker B: Good stuff. [00:58:12] Speaker A: Do you have, by the way. [00:58:13] Speaker B: I mean, I'm chilling. I don't okay anything until. Yeah, yeah, I figured I'd ask. [00:58:19] Speaker A: I want to ask you about psychedelics. All Right. [00:58:23] Speaker B: Let's get into it. [00:58:23] Speaker A: You seem to be open about it, and they've helped me tremendously. They felt, you know, many, many people. Would you be able to get into how you sought after psychedelics, what they've done for you? You know, what. What is psychedelia done for Dr. William Burke? [00:58:46] Speaker B: Let's not doctor this situation, okay? No, it's such a tricky thing. Like, what's medical advice and what's. [00:58:55] Speaker A: Oh, I see. Yeah. Okay. [00:58:57] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:58:58] Speaker A: Well, I'll do a disclaimer. Not medical advice. [00:59:00] Speaker B: Not medical advice, please. I mean, I kind of discovered them in college. Wasn't hugely fascinated. Did ayahuasca a few times, like, in medical school, I think had some really powerful opening experiences. I'm actually, like, really moving away from. From psychedelics. So they've been very helpful in my life. Opened things up, made me face things that were difficult to face, especially a boga. Like, a boga is a. Is painful, is difficult, but it's like, you. You pay for your lessons. Like, I. I've never learned something that wasn't hard. And so just. Yeah, I believe that, like, we use psychedelics and we go to these ecstatic states, and that's not always a helpful thing. [01:00:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:07] Speaker B: Like, What's the saying? Like, the path to heaven feels like hell and the path to hell feels like heaven. [01:00:17] Speaker A: I never heard that before. [01:00:18] Speaker B: Well, I believe in. In the psychedelic context, it's true. Like, often we come into these psychedelic spaces with. With frameworks for understanding ourselves and our lives, and they're often egoic, often mind centric often. And when I say egoic, they, like, are like us versus them, or I'm this way because, you know, I've heard many times, like, people coming, okay, I'm gonna do psychedelics, and they help me realize that I am this way because. And oftentimes that can be colored by compassion and forgiveness. That's amazing. But I've also seen a lot of cases where people have done a lot of harm because either they're not with a facilitator who understands the cultural context or the. The thought context, the matrix that they're coming in with. You know, in the ayahuasca context, it's like, these shamans will cure you. Well, do you need to be cured, or do you just need perspective on the things that are keeping you from being fully alive? Yeah, so I just think there's a lot, a lot happening in the psychedelic worlds. Like, I think there's some things that can be quite disempowering around psychedelics. Like this medicine will fix you. And as a ER doctor, like, I'm really good at that. Like, take this medicine, you'll get better. But in the psychedelic context, I think that's actually quite harmful. Yeah, I think there's a lot of, like, yeah. Different people with different things, projections, a lot of people who want to be healers. And I think a real healer is just someone who makes space and allows you to heal yourself. And so, yeah, so anyway, so just like Ram Dass, I, I got really into this. I've done like tons of trainings and I help, I help run a psychedelic clinic in New York. But I've taken a big step back just because I think to do it correctly. You've heard of like set and setting, but I believe that there's like set, setting and matrix. And the matrix bit is the way that we build our lives and the ways that we create community around this work or the ways, the setting, the mindset, for instance, needs to really. We need to have practices, we need to have community, we need to have ways of imagining the world that then we bring the psychedelics in and they illuminate that. But when you're not doing that, and oftentimes people don't really want to make space for that, want to have the big experience, the big revelation and then go back to their lives. But to do it right, you really, it takes a lot, it takes a lot of shifting of, of, of ways that we thought, think of ourselves, think of other people, think of the world. So yeah, I think there's a way to do it. I'm working on it, but, but for. [01:03:31] Speaker A: Now. [01:03:34] Speaker B: I just see it's like amplifying things in people's lives that don't need to be amplified and can often get people more lost in the maze. [01:03:49] Speaker A: Yeah, well spoken. [01:03:51] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:03:52] Speaker A: There's no cookie cutter. Just take this mushroom and you'll be okay. Prescription when it comes to psychedelics. [01:03:59] Speaker B: But psychedelic science is kind of, or some psychedelic science is based on that concept. Like look at the ketamine data for instance. Or the way, even the way the ketamine is being facilitated. It's like have this ego dissolving experience and then, and then we'll talk to you later. Like oftentimes they're not even done with, with integration and preparation. [01:04:21] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:04:23] Speaker B: And then what happens when this is rolled out in a large scale? Like are people going to have the guidance by someone who really is grounded in their stuff or, or a therapist that took a six month course and is now blasting people off? [01:04:41] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, I don't know. And trust me, I'm an advocate for psychedelics. They've helped me so much. [01:04:50] Speaker B: Ultimately, me too, but. [01:04:52] Speaker A: Right. But I don't know if at a large scale it could work like alcohol or like marijuana. I don't think it's supposed to be like that. So think about in terms of, you know, the tribal setting and where we came from, where psychedelics used to come from. It was like a sacrament. It was like almost like secret societies, like the Elusian mysteries. Right. You would have to be in a group that was prepared to take a journey. It's something extremely powerful. It's more than just take this here, you'll feel better. [01:05:29] Speaker B: But I mean, okay, there's, let's say in the shamanistic context, like the shaman was your uncle, or the shaman was someone who has known you since you were born. Like, they know what you're going through, they know what you're like, and you take the thing and then like, they continue to be with you for years. You're going to anywhere and so this person can help guide you and they know what you're going through and all that stuff. But the, like, you know, going down to Peru and taking thing and then leaving two days later, you're on your own. You're toe still on your own. I mean, furthermore, like, I mean, I, I don't want to like wipe the veil of ayahuasca, but traditionally the way it was done was the shaman would take it and then tell you what was going on. Like, it was never, it was never something that shamans, that people other than the shaman would take. Like this whole group ayahuasca ceremony thing, that's a new. That's a brand new western modality. [01:06:29] Speaker A: I never heard that before. [01:06:30] Speaker B: That's not a. That's not a. Yeah. Like. So, yes, classically it's the shaman that takes it and then gives you a prescription. [01:06:42] Speaker A: About. You got it completely backwards. [01:06:44] Speaker B: Yeah. Now everyone takes it. Everyone's their own shaman without any shaman training. Like. [01:06:49] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:06:50] Speaker B: And Yeah. I mean, I feel this way even more. So with 5 Meo DMT, people are blasting off into complete dissolution and then just like coming back and it's like, you know, and, and you know, they don't even get a day of integration before they're off. [01:07:08] Speaker A: Like, it's right back to work on Monday. [01:07:11] Speaker B: Exactly. I mean, people do it because they can go back to work on Monday. [01:07:15] Speaker A: You do it on your lunch break. [01:07:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Really? That you can. I mean, you can't you shouldn't. Kids at home. But you could and people do. Now I know people who have done that. [01:07:29] Speaker A: Wow. [01:07:30] Speaker B: I mean, the ketamine thing, Like, I was facilitating ketamine for big groups, like on a weekday night. I mean, because you can go back to work the next day. Yeah. But I think we. We. We give lip service to these things being a sacrament, but we're not willing to do the. The things that actually, like, need to be done in order to take a sacrament and make it. [01:07:58] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:07:59] Speaker B: Make it sacred. Like, what does it mean to do months of purification, of preparation, to. To integrate it into our lives and to make that part of our sadhana? It's a. It's not. It's not a. Anyway, it's not the way that these things are generally facilitated. Now we. [01:08:22] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:08:22] Speaker B: Fitting them into our western model. [01:08:25] Speaker A: Right. [01:08:25] Speaker B: It's like we're fitting them into the same model that says, take this pill and you'll be better. [01:08:30] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. [01:08:31] Speaker B: And maybe we get an incredible insight. But I think what's more powerful is living incredibly. Like, I just like to go back to what we were saying before. Like, what. How do you live correctly? And that's by, like, just allowing life to live through you. Like, all the great insights in the world are not gonna. Like, that's just gonna be like, okay, now I have to do this. Or, like, I have to create this different way of being. Or, you know, it's. It's all just ego doing. Ego doing mind stuff. [01:09:09] Speaker A: Yeah. You always come back down. [01:09:13] Speaker B: You always come back down. Yeah. And I've seen people who've done like a thousand ceremony. I'm really. I've known people who've done like 700 ayahuasca ceremony. [01:09:21] Speaker A: That's crazy, man. [01:09:22] Speaker B: Yeah. It's insane. But, like, they're not all that better for it. So everyone at home who loves this stuff, I. I'm always getting myself in trouble with these hot takes. [01:09:33] Speaker A: I don't think it's that hot. [01:09:34] Speaker B: Okay. All right. Thank you. But I. I'm. I just feel like all this work can be done without psychedelics. [01:09:43] Speaker A: I agree. That's. [01:09:45] Speaker B: That's all I'm saying. And maybe it's not as much fun, maybe it's not as big rainbow, whatever. But unless you really know what you're doing, getting to the core of the stuff, meeting yourself in those difficult parts, every ceremony will just be another thing to fix you. And ultimately, you don't need to be fixed. You need to be loved exactly how you are. [01:10:13] Speaker A: Yep. [01:10:14] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:16] Speaker A: Amen. [01:10:17] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:10:17] Speaker A: Yeah. Or else you'll do 700 ayahuasca ceremonies. [01:10:20] Speaker B: Exactly. And still be searching. Yeah, yeah. [01:10:24] Speaker A: You would think by, like, the fifth one, you'd be like, okay, maybe this. This ain't it. Legitimately, 700. [01:10:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I mean, these people are, like, working in ayahuasca clinics, like, drinking three times a. A day or three times a. Three times a week or four times. [01:10:38] Speaker A: I can see if you work there. But still, I don't know. Well, I'm not judging. I'm. It's not for me. I'm just say that. [01:10:46] Speaker B: But if you don't get a message by the hundredth, like, come on, man. Try a different. [01:10:57] Speaker A: Yeah, that's what's funny, though, is because we've both been through it, we both take an ample amount of psychedelics, and now we've come to a point where we say, well, maybe I didn't need to, but it's like we had to take the psychedelics in order to realize we didn't need the psychedelics in the first place. [01:11:14] Speaker B: That's true. Back to Jim Carrey. I hope everyone gets to be famous. So they don't realize that being famous is not that great. Yeah, yeah. Maybe that's true. Maybe that's, like, part of the path. [01:11:27] Speaker A: Yep, I think it is. They say in Buddhism, there's one saying. I mean, I'm not going to quote it verbatim, but it's really, like, at the end of the path, you even have to let go of the dharma. You even have to let go of Buddha. Let go of the mushrooms. [01:11:42] Speaker B: That was Buddha's final teaching before he died was. [01:11:44] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:11:47] Speaker B: Let go of me. Yeah, yeah. [01:11:53] Speaker A: Right. It's like, probably heard this story before. You build a raft to get to the other side of the river, but when you're on the other side, you got to let go of the raft. Yeah, Something along those lines. [01:12:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah, right. Yeah, yeah. It's true. So we're going to India to burn down the raft. [01:12:16] Speaker A: That's it, man. [01:12:17] Speaker B: That's it. Yeah. That was all I needed to say. That's all I needed to say. [01:12:23] Speaker A: Well, I'm glad I got to speak to you before you go on your pilgrimage. [01:12:26] Speaker B: So grateful you reached out. It was. [01:12:29] Speaker A: Yeah. Feels very fitting. And maybe, you know, we can tap in when you're over there and we can see how you're doing. [01:12:36] Speaker B: I love that. Maybe. Yeah, you can meet the guys. [01:12:39] Speaker A: Yeah. After you adopt the swami name. Yeah. [01:12:43] Speaker B: I don't know that that's never appeal. I feel you, but. Yeah, yeah. I would. I'd love that. Yeah. This is kind of nice. This is kind of like a landmark in where I'm at. [01:12:55] Speaker A: I'm honored. [01:12:56] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:13:00] Speaker A: Well, I think we can start to wrap it up, man. I think we came full circle. This was beautiful. Yeah. You're an awesome guy. [01:13:06] Speaker B: Yeah, likewise, man. Thank you so much. You, for sure. I. Yeah, the last. I did one of these. Yeah. Like a year ago, and. Yeah. I'm grateful that we. We had this together. [01:13:22] Speaker A: Right back at you. Do you have anything else you want to say, though, or you want to keep it at that? [01:13:26] Speaker B: I think that's it. Appreciate you. If anyone wants to check me out, William Burke, M.D. william B E R K M D instagram.com. i'll see you there. [01:13:42] Speaker A: Awesome. I'll link all your stuff down in the description for people to find you. Dr. William Burke, thank you for joining me today. [01:13:48] Speaker B: Thank you, Gary. Such a pleasure. [01:13:50] Speaker A: Peace and love, everybody. [01:13:52] Speaker B: Bye, y'. All.