Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Well, first of all, Guy, thank you for joining me today.
[00:00:05] Speaker B: Thank you, Gary. Glad to be able to meet you and have the time that I feel will be profitable so we can get.
[00:00:15] Speaker A: Let's get at it.
So, yeah, getting this thing started, would you be able to give us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Exactly.
[00:00:24] Speaker B: A little bit about myself.
You know, it's really a long story and I have almost no interest in it.
But the bottom line is that.
[00:00:42] Speaker A: Through.
[00:00:42] Speaker B: A series of semi life altering events, my course in life was altered dramatically. From a very, very young age, I followed as truly as I could what was presented to me in terms of something that I could love and devote myself to.
And that path took me from a life in Beverly Hills, the son of a Time magazine man of the decade, to living in a one room apartment that took me through writing music, that took me into writing books, that took me into speaking.
And here's Guy.
[00:01:39] Speaker A: Here you are.
Yeah, awesome.
So would you be able to describe what exactly you devoted yourself to?
[00:01:49] Speaker B: Sure.
Ties in with what I said. Yuri, my father was a, was literally the man that invented late night television talk shows before names that no one who will be joining us would know, unless they're in the 70s or 80s like I am, they would have no idea.
But suffice it to say that back in the day, names like Dean Martin and Desi Arnaz and Frank Sinatra and Liza Minnelli, that these, the sons and daughters of these celebrities were my friends. We were the young Rat Pack, as it were.
And from the get go, and I mean literally from the get go, like riding in the lap of Jay Mansfield. Nobody knows that name anymore. Big Hollywood star back in the day, the Hollywood Christmas parade in the green room with all these celebrities, six, seven years old.
And the fear and anger was palpable to me in that room and I never understood why. As I got a little older, I began to realize that for whatever reason, I didn't know what to call it then.
The people that should have been the least likely to be afraid and angry and bitter were the most angry, bitter and empty.
And it just took off from there. I wanted to know I hadn't related it yet to my own life.
Why is there so much pain and fear and nobody knows one thing about it other than this? I started to say a bad word than the ridiculous ideology, the so called spiritual platforms that populate the world today, where everybody's told in one way or another, you have to learn to love yourself, trust yourself. You know, all of this business.
And if we're going to go down that road, we won't have far to go. Because everything that I talk about is a different order of self. And that's where my search led me.
Into a relationship with something that is, by its own nature, without anger or fear. Not that I am without anger or fear, but that it's possible, beyond any shadow of a doubt, for an individual to experience, first briefly, then through extended periods, a relationship with another order of their own being that cannot be corrupted, let alone made a captive of any condition, no matter its nature.
[00:04:35] Speaker A: Well spoken.
A greater order.
I like that a lot.
[00:04:42] Speaker B: Indeed.
[00:04:44] Speaker A: So how do you suppose that we tap into this greater order? You know, like, do you have a prescription or practices or modalities for us to be able to see that?
[00:04:52] Speaker B: No.
[00:04:53] Speaker A: Nothing.
[00:04:54] Speaker B: Look, I've been talking. I'm 76 years old, 77. I've been talking for 50 years.
And all I talk about two, three times a year, a week, for free.
So, like 30,000 talks is about in quotes, not how, but why.
When you know the why. The how is in front of you.
Until you know why, whatever you come up with, this how is part of the why.
[00:05:24] Speaker A: Because.
[00:05:24] Speaker B: Because you're working on something that has nothing to do with the problem.
So I can talk till the cows come home, quite literally, about anything you want to talk about. But we have to have the right context, Gary.
Without the right context, we're going nowhere, nowhere at all. And the context isn't that I'm someone special who is growing into this magnificent relationship with Jesus Christ or Buddha or whatever the ideology may be.
The fact is that I'm a human being who has no idea who he is and is trying to find himself through images that, by the way, Christ and Buddha and Moses, you know, the commandments, said, no, don't do that. No images. But why no images? Because you can't have an image without an identity.
So that the image becomes a substitute for my sense of self. So whenever I'm in trouble, I turn to my icon, whatever it might be. Might be Tiger Woods, I don't know. You know, wherever I find a momentary sense of consolation, that mind will go there so that it can remember and experience something in the past and get it through whatever the pain is of the present moment that is produced by an incessant conflict that. That this consciousness has with life itself.
[00:06:47] Speaker A: So the why would you say is because we're suffering? Is that the context?
[00:06:53] Speaker B: The suffering is? The suffering is an effect of the context. The context is that we are born into and immersed in a world that has no idea.
Immersed in a world populated by human beings who have no idea why they're on the planet.
And so all of the things that we are vested in, our ideals have to do with something in time. I'm going to become this. I'm going to become an authority. I'm going to reach social status beyond comparison.
Always in time, always through imagination.
And failing, I might add, when all of that pans out, which it always does, if it's not immediate, then certainly I'm sure you can attest to it.
What's that saying? Men make plans and God laughs or something like that. When conditions fail to support whatever it is that I believe is required for me to be at peace, then my peace goes out the door. And because it was condition related, condition dependent.
Human beings are not meant to be dependent on conditions outside of them. They're meant to be in an independent relationship with another order of consciousness already within them.
So we go full circle here. You can just. Anytime you want me to stop trying, just zip my lip like that and I'll leave space for you. But you get me started and then I'm off to the races.
The kingdom of heaven is within.
There's no spiritual discipline that doesn't allude to the fact that there is something going on within our being that we don't know about.
And if it's actually within, then where in God's name is everybody going now? They're trying to achieve. They're trying to create a kingdom of heaven in their own image, which is all this mind knows how to do.
So here I am, I'm feeling this loneliness, I'm feeling this frustration all born out of being separated from myself and in that desire, coming up with what I have to do and become so I can escape this pain.
When the very mind that's producing the promise is the source of the pain. And until we start to see that, then we're always in the wrong context.
And as we do, the context changes. Because now we realize this is really an inside job and not something, as Christ would say, that can be taken by force.
This idea of disciplining myself and becoming. And don't misunderstand me, Gary, it's not well known, but I spent almost eight years living in a cave, meditating and doing breathing exercises and the full blown yogic experience and had infinite number of mystical experiences.
But while they're promises, they don't produce the transformation.
The transformation can't be separated from the need based on seeing what is true and what's not about oneself.
So until we actually wake up from this sleep that we're in a dream that we're constantly participating in because it's like a carrot on a stick in front of this jackass. By the way, St. Francis called himself the jackass. So I'm not saying anything bad about anybody, certainly not about myself. I'll be the first to tell you, it's a miracle.
Last thing I'll say about the context.
People talk about the kingdom of Heaven nowadays. In fact, it's becoming increasingly popular in Western traditions because of certain things.
As if a person can walk upright through their good deeds and through their love of God, they're going to walk upright through the gates of the kingdom of Heaven. Anybody that even alludes to that is lost.
If you want to know what the marks are in front of the gates in the kingdom of Heaven, there are heel marks where a person was dragged through the gate.
That's how people get in. Because if it weren't for something within us, by the grace of God showing us where it is, that we've missed the mark.
My anger with my husband, my frustration with my wife, my bitterness over the past, my regrets, my fear about what may happen.
These aren't the evidence of a beneficent God promising to deliver you to whatever it is that your imagination says. These are the remnants of a conditioned consciousness forever trying to escape the captivity that it creates as it seeks the kingdom outside of itself.
[00:11:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
So is the essence of the kingdom then simply surrendering to this greater order?
[00:12:00] Speaker B: No, you can't. If you imagine a greater order, you're in a dream.
The greater order isn't in thought.
Awakening is not a mental exercise or the outcome of some discipline, no matter how sophisticated.
Awakening has to do with being honest about oneself in the moment, when that moment reveals everything that the moments are intended to about the consciousness that's entered into it.
And as you begin to see what is true, the action is actually in the seeing.
Because now, you know, I can't go there anymore.
I want to.
I'm terribly attracted to. And then fill in the blanks. I'm attracted to my own ambition. Fill in the blanks. And then one day, and this is up to God.
No man, no woman. One day you realize, you know.
[00:12:58] Speaker A: I've.
[00:12:58] Speaker B: Been trying to prove myself. I've been rushing to get someplace.
I've been hoping to transcend these tormenting thoughts that visit me when I put my head on the pillow, that are there when I wake up in the morning in the form of anxiety because I've got to make something happen. And one day you're right in the middle of all that. You realize I've done that a hundred thousand times. I have been that man a hundred thousand times. I've had his experience a hundred thousand times.
And I'm tired of it.
But then there's the paradox.
First, if I'm tired of it, what's going to take its place? Because all I know how to do is substitute one ambition for another. Spiritual, financial, political, social. That's all I know.
This didn't work, but that will.
So that will is a time when I achieve whatever the new goal is.
Now back up.
If the kingdom of heaven is within, is there a distance between myself and the kingdom?
No, no, no distance at all.
And if there's no distance to be traveled, then what is thought other than a time making machine always producing out of some dissatisfaction a time when I achieve what will satisfy me. So as that incredible unseen matrix of a mechanical life begins to dawn inside of the aspirants eyes with new eyes as Christ would call them, suddenly the action isn't I will, the action is I won't.
Negation, which all the true teachers, that is the path negation, the ten Commandments, negation, Christ teaching, largely negation, although they got twisted into affirming that you're this kind of person who loves this kind of, you know, blah, blah, blah. But it's all about, okay, you know, I'm going to get on this call with Gary and there's a lot riding on this conversation.
I mean, you understand, with complete respect.
Well, no, there's nothing writing on this conversation.
Everything's riding on what I can, what I can realize about myself as I'm here with you.
Then I'm engaged in the conversation.
I'm engaged fully in what the moment is revealing to God through this other awareness that clearly isn't Guy. Because if Guy was the source of the awareness, he wouldn't have had to get into his 70s before he wakes up.
So you can start to see the real context is a larger picture than any silly thing anyone imagines about getting someplace that doesn't exist outside of imagination.
And somehow my sense of self can't be a derivative anymore of what may or may not happen to me or of what did happen to me, that I'm still trying to figure out how to get past it.
[00:16:15] Speaker A: Yep, it's powerful stuff. Yeah. So it's not necessarily surrendering to a greater order because as you said then, that Just alludes to you got to do something, you got to go somewhere there is a greater order outside of oneself.
[00:16:30] Speaker B: Well, whose order?
[00:16:32] Speaker A: Yeah, I don't know.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: I would say God's order is my idea of God's order. God's order, or is my idea?
[00:16:42] Speaker A: No, we can never know.
[00:16:44] Speaker B: Or is my idea outside of God's order in one respect? Because if I actually was a part of God's order, I wouldn't have to be thinking about how to become a part of it.
[00:16:55] Speaker A: I would say God's order is exactly how you described it. It's just being with whatever comes up in the moment, being with you and just loving you for who you are in the moment. That is God's order. And it's perpetually changing as we go. It's kind of created on the go.
[00:17:08] Speaker B: It is created on the go. And I would just add this because I have to. So is the whole idea of what it means to love yourself.
Because the only way in which a person finally wins, if you want to use those words and they're not appropriate, this all been twisted up into something trashy. The only way a person wins God's love is when they no longer love themselves as someone outside of the presence of that moment, revealing this consciousness, then there is a singularity.
It is a singularity that is the expression of love. It is revelation that that is the manifestation in time of something timeless. And if you're outside that singularity, outside of that unity, and that's what the thinking mind is, that is duality. It isn't just the expression of duality. It perpetuates duality.
So all of that gets clear, and it's like the walls in a room getting tighter and tighter. I tell my students, it's a kind of crucible.
You can't create it, but you can agree to start seeing. Well, there can't go there, can't go there. No point in those thoughts. What good is that? And then the mind as it awakens begins by some miracle, the process of negating itself.
When it sees that of itself, it can't save itself.
And isn't that what we're always trying to do? I mean, aren't we always trying in one way or another to save ourselves?
Even at the dinner table?
[00:18:46] Speaker A: Even at the what?
[00:18:48] Speaker B: Even at the dinner table.
[00:18:50] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:51] Speaker B: Why do people overeat or eat really cruddy food? Apart from cultural and environmental conditioning, which was very deep, we're always trying to find some kind of pleasure. And it never occurs to us that if we weren't in pain, we wouldn't be looking for pleasure.
Pleasure is not the answer to pain.
The revelation of the nature that's creating this pain is true pleasure. Because then you transcend this nature that's always desiring the next thing to satisfy itself.
[00:19:24] Speaker A: The revelation of it. So you're saying it's just by this sense of seeing. Just by seeing it in this way is the antidote.
[00:19:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Again, Christ talks about this thing called metanoia.
Essentially, it means a new mind.
But inherent in the Arabic language is the idea of turning around.
So if a person wants a new mind to enter into the kingdom of heaven, first they have to turn around.
But as they turn around, this is where the new eyes and the new ears come in. Because now I'm attuned to what my awareness is showing me, instead of being attuned to what my reactions are pointing to as the source of my suffering.
[00:20:05] Speaker A: Mm.
That's the shift.
It's the big 180.
[00:20:11] Speaker B: That's it.
[00:20:11] Speaker A: And that's how everything changes.
[00:20:13] Speaker B: And that's how that's the only way things change.
Other than that, things don't really change. They just take on another form, which is another reason that it's so important for men and women for whom it is important.
I mean, how.
Who wants to be? I don't know. Have you ever been with anybody when they're dying, Gary?
[00:20:38] Speaker A: My grandmother. I mean, I wasn't, like, in the moment. Like, I didn't hold her in my arms or anything, but it's pretty close to it. Yeah.
[00:20:45] Speaker B: Were you in the room with somebody who was dying?
[00:20:48] Speaker A: Not like at the moment of death, no.
[00:20:51] Speaker B: Well, I can tell you firsthand experience that a sleeping human being dies in fear of coming to the end of a dream that wasn't real to begin with.
So their hearts and minds are filled with, why did I waste my time? I'm so afraid what's going to happen to me.
I have all of these regrets. I wish I'd said, I love some, you know?
No sleeping human being dies awake.
If you die awake while you're in this body, then when the time comes to shed this body, you're not going to be afraid and full of regrets. You'll be in one respect, interested in what's happening.
[00:21:38] Speaker A: That's powerful.
[00:21:40] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a fact.
And along the way, the whole idea of death disappears, because what am I doing in the moment? If I see myself as I am and I see this old nature come up and it's going to blame somebody or it's going to say that little critical remark, that passive aggressive confidence is going to throw something in there. I'm going to let somebody know how deeply spiritual I am through some suggested posture or whatever.
When you see that and it's seen clearly, you can no longer incarnate that nature.
And when you no longer incarnate that nature by the fact the light reveals it, it begins to die. So you, in quotes, as you've known yourself, sacrifice yourself. But it's not your strength, it's intelligence.
And as you lay yourself down in a form of speaking, are crucified in that moment you pass. And something that was already there reveals itself as being an act of grace.
That you were present enough to bear whatever that suffering was without calling it a name, without blaming anybody for it. And then you die before you die.
And when you do that enough, then you start to understand that there is no death.
Not as an intellectual exercise, but you understand that which is divine never stops giving birth to itself.
Never.
We're not awake enough yet to be in the moment where that revelation is crystal clear.
Because to be in that moment is to be part of the timelessness of creation.
We're not a part of the timelessness of creation. We're caught in the hell of time produced by trying to create heaven as we imagine it.
[00:23:36] Speaker A: Wow.
Yeah, got to sit with that one. That's a really good last line.
Wow.
We're not going trapped in the hell of time based upon the idea of what we think heaven should be.
[00:23:53] Speaker B: Yep.
[00:23:54] Speaker A: Wow.
[00:23:55] Speaker B: 100%.
And that wouldn't be resonating if you didn't have some suspicion or understanding of it. That's the beauty of what's true in a conversation like this anyway. Two men interested in what's divine, what is true, they share some ideas, and suddenly you hear something.
My favorite way of putting a dog will go like this. You know, when it hears a sound, it's not quite clear what that is.
Trying to focus, where is that coming from? So when that stop moment comes, that's exactly what's going on inwardly.
Wait a minute, there's something. I want to chew on that bone for a little while. And then you have just the real contemplation.
Because real contemplation isn't intellectual like Jesuit priests. The body intellection, you know, it's emotional. If it's not emotional, you're dead in the water. Because intellectual stuff never stops dividing itself up. But if you can bring in the heart at the same time, then you can begin to see there's something Much greater than these parts, then you participate in the sum of oneself true self. Instead of looking for oneself in thought, which is.
I mean, you have to go through it. But let's be clear about this.
What's that old country in Western?
Everybody wants to go to heaven, but nobody wants to die.
So I'm busy living it up. When I think about I'm going to see my favorite dog when I walk through the gates, whatever it may be, people console themselves.
Why in the name of God, Gary, do I have to console myself?
Why?
And if you're honest, the answer is because I'm just consoled.
I'm not happy.
I'm afraid of the future.
So I have to imagine one that when I imagine I have this wonderful experience, but then somebody burns my toast or the waiter doesn't bring the food on time, and all of a sudden all my beautifications, they go, oh, I love you Jesus, I love you, I love you, Buddha. And it's all out the window and I never see the contradiction.
Would you like to hear a funny truth story?
[00:26:16] Speaker A: Yeah, please.
[00:26:17] Speaker B: An example of this.
Way back in the day, what was I, 17, 18 years old when I. When I started this particular sadhana that I described to you, living in that more or less in the mountain thing, I would sit for anywhere from five to seven, eight hours a day, not including that yoga and breathing stuff. So one day I was sitting there on my little tri stool thing from somewhere in the east. I don't know what it was. That was my sound little room.
I'm sitting there and all of a sudden it's gotten dark. And all of a sudden my head filled with light.
It was unbelievable. Oh my God.
Oh my God. Is this what I've been waiting for?
Sorry. It's humorous to me. And then I thought, and I opened my eyes and my neighbor had come to that part of the house in the hill and was shining a flashlight in my.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: That's great.
[00:27:21] Speaker B: Well, it was. See, that was a wake up call, Right. Instead of being angry, I thought, no, guy, you could be fooled in so many ways. It's unbelievable. And you want to be fooled.
Oh, yeah, obviously. Because what happened immediately identification with enlightenment.
Well, enlightenment is the antithesis of identification. It's the abnegation of that level of self. So this mind can't see that at all.
And it's always like a domino. Dominoes. Is that like dominoes? Yeah, that's what it is. Is it? Clack, clack, clack, clack, clack, clack. Like that. That's all it does just goes on and on until.
Until by the grace of God, a person has some shocks that they would never in their life as they are prior to that moment invite into their life.
But we can see, and I'll ask you to be the advocate here, we can see that the most important moments in our life have not been where somebody toasted us with champagne and gave us a set of keys to a car.
Most important moments in life were the ones that we did not want at all at that time.
But then afterwards we came to see how.
Why did it take 10 years to recognize that what that person said is true?
Yeah, why did it take.
When I was in grammar school I was, I was on the. No, it wasn't grammar school, sophomore year, high school and I, I had won a football scholarship very early on to USC and because I was a pretty good athlete and I got tackled carrying the kickoff back. My left leg has been paralyzed since 17 years old.
So what do you think happens when we have these great misfortunes? Especially since the whole of my life is predicated on. I thought I was going to go on and play pro ball. That was the dream back in the day.
So I'm on the phone with. I'll say her first name, I won't say her last name. I'm on the phone with Jill and I have no idea what's going on. There's this long silence and finally says, you know what guy? Say what Jill said. All you ever talk about is yourself.
That's all, that's all you're interested in.
Nothing else enters these conversations except for stuff about you and your self pity.
And I remember sitting there, I remember I broke out into a sweat because I knew she. Right, I didn't know it prior to that.
And if it hadn't been for Jill.
So What? Fast forward 60 years later, I'm still learning the truth of what she said.
Because what we are is a self relating machine. Whatever it is that happens, it relates to me and, and if it doesn't relate to the part of me that wants the power of the pleasure, then it's rejected. And that still relates to me even though I think I'm separating myself from the source of my pain. So all that's in here all the time and we don't see it. So here's a moment 60 years ago and I'm still harvesting it now. Is that a healthy shock? You would have to say? Oh my God, yes, because it really set the path. Was it a shock? I wanted absolutely not did he have somebody tell you at that age? Especially when you really think you are a demigod of some kind, you know, that you're the most self centered person I've ever spoken with in my life.
You don't want to hear it.
[00:31:17] Speaker A: Wow.
Isn't it such a miracle that it is grace? That grace, that grace is that there's really nothing that we have to do.
[00:31:31] Speaker B: Except be honest and embody and incarnate as best we can, whatever that revelation is showing us about ourselves.
So it isn't faith.
St. Paul said, who has faith in things seen, our faith must be in things unseen. Well, what in the name of God does that mean? It means that if whatever you imagine and have faith in, somehow you have to have faith in something that isn't seen. And that's what these moments of shock are.
Because I don't want to see this, but I can't ignore it.
And if you embrace the revelation, you are embracing the intelligence that that brought you into that moment for the purpose of that revelation.
That's the miracle, which in some way, and I'll never be able to express this verbally, you are the center of the universe, Gary.
I am too.
But if I'm the center and you're the center, and we both think we're the center, we're going to have a fight. That's what wars are.
But if we understand the center of the universe is everywhere at all times he maketh the sun to shine on good and evil alike. Consider the lilies of the field. All of those scriptural passages are all pointing to the fact that somehow or other there is this divine light, a living love that permeates everything there is and brings everything there is into specific relationships. I don't know how it does it so that that specific identity can discover where it has misplaced its love and understanding and begin to embrace something that is truly timeless.
[00:33:18] Speaker A: Sounds like God to me.
[00:33:19] Speaker B: Yeah, but not with an aim, right?
[00:33:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah.
Okay.
Yeah. You articulate things that I knew, I've always known, but I've never quite articulated myself or heard from other people. You know, the way that there is this revelation, constant revelation for us, to shock us. That's a word also I never heard. To shock us out of our own delusion.
[00:33:52] Speaker B: Think about it. When you have a bad dream, if you do, you don't know you're in a bad dream.
You're resisting tooth and nail the experience of whatever this brain is hallucinating about.
And then somehow when it reaches a pitch, what happens?
I wake Up.
Oh, gross. Better. I'm glad that was a dream or what. Right, so now, as above, so below, as within, so without.
Can we look at that in scale?
I call these shocks a close encounter of the truthful kind.
And that's what they are.
And we know that they're a close encounter of the truthful kind because the shock reveals that which we had no idea was true about our consciousness.
Now this consciousness isn't going, oh, I love this shock.
It wants to find consolation for the experience instead of what the truth teaches us, which is we don't want to find consolation. We want to find a way to embody that revelation as purely as we can, which means we can't take thought about the shock. If you take thought about the shock, you're outside the revelation.
I can't try to add to the revelation. If I do, I'm outside the revelation and I certainly can't escape it or try to.
If I resist it, I'm outside the revelation.
So the reaction has a specific purpose in terms of reconciling all the parts to a greater whole. That's what a reaction is. But for us, a reaction is proof that Gary doesn't understand me, that the world doesn't love me, or that the world should admire me, or that I'm worth admiring. This is what our reactions tell us. They create us pinpoint specific identity.
The entrance into the reaction that is revelation is the disappearance of identity because it's been replaced by something far greater than this pea brain would ever be able to come up with.
[00:36:00] Speaker A: Mm.
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Speaking of myself.
[00:36:06] Speaker A: Speaking personally, of course. Yes, I feel you. You know, it's funny, last night I was thinking, I'm like, we're just. We're all so. Just dumb. There's no way that this is all.
How do I put it?
There's no way that we have anything figured out yet. We have the audacity to believe that we do. Like, we think that this is all because of us, because of humans. It's like human beings are so naive. We really are. But yet we think we're so smart.
In some ways we are. I mean, we are intelligent beings compared to other, like animals and stuff, but really in the scheme of things, we are just so ignorant.
[00:36:43] Speaker B: Congratulations, you're smarter than the fish you catch on the hook, you know?
[00:36:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I guess that's something. But I don't know.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: This is a form of self imposed ignorance.
Yeah, but the problem is we don't realize that we're conditioned to. To live in ignorance. This is when Plato Talked about the allegory of the caves. I don't know if you're familiar with it. The shadows on the wall.
See, to believe the shadows were reality is a form of ignorance. But the light that actually shows those shadows, eventually a person can turn around and not only walk past the first awareness that those shadows, those thoughts, those dreams are a form of ignorance because they keep you asleep.
Walk past that and like the philosopher king, exit that cave, be blinded like St. Paul on the road to Damascus because of the real light, meaning entering into this sort of abyss of self, and then turn around and come back and say, you know, I saw something. Are you interested? And everybody goes for the most part. No, no, no, no. Don't mess with, mess with my shadows. Don't mess with my regrets. I say all day long I want to be free of the past and the drop of a hat. I can't wait to go back and feel pain by reliving something that has no authority whatsoever, save for the fact that it attracts me into that cave.
[00:38:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
Now this may be a rather esoteric and out there question, but how did we even get in the cave in the first place? You know, I mean, I don't even know if that's answerable, but. But are we masochistic? Like what is it about us wanting to stay in the cave and how did we get in the cave in the first place?
[00:38:38] Speaker B: It is obviously an esoteric question, but it runs probably way too deep to cover in three minutes, probably in an hour.
But it has to do, Gary, with.
It has to do with creation.
Sub creation, sub creation, sub creation. Old esoteric teachings call it the ray of creation.
And that with each subsequent creation, by the nature of it is further divided.
And the further divided one is from the source of creation, the further one is away from realizing that they are like an ember is part of a flame. That I'm actually a part of this unbelievable act of creation.
When it says in the beginning God created the heavens and the earth, that wasn't like science is. How arrogant. Fourteen and a half billion years. That wasn't in time.
It on the other hand, created time.
So the creation wasn't in time, but by the fact of the division it created time and then division after division until you get down to human beings who originally didn't have a problem.
When you talk about the Adamic soul, it was in tune with life.
It knew all the creatures, all the creatures knew it. There was no separation in this consciousness. A singular awareness that permeated all of creation at that level, as subtle as it was, and then in quotes, something happens.
All that happens is it's part of that, it's physics, a part of the entropic movement, part of the entropy.
And you fall further and further into entropy. And the entropy, entropy that followed this more holy state was the idea that I'm apart from what's holy.
And the minute I'm apart from whatever the creation is, now I have to take care of everything so I can have a life created and be safe and secure in my kingdom. But the fact that you've imagined a kingdom that is being acted on incessantly by forces trying to reconcile the whole. Again, you have endless conflict with life because it's forever threatening Gary or Guy.
And so the more threatened I am, the more desperate I am. The more desperate, the more afraid. The more afraid, the more wars, the more separation. And you can see that evil is not God's doing. Evil is not the doing of the divine.
Evil is what came out of imagination. When the human beings tried to figure out what God was and how to get back, there was nowhere to get back to. There was just a reverse. You know, the angels, Jacob's ladder. I don't know if you know the image, it's a popular Christian image, you know, coming down and angels going up these steps.
Well, that's the, what they call that, the snake that swallows the tail. That's the sign of eternity. But it's a return. The prodigal son. A return.
A return. A return. A return.
So to return doesn't take time and space, but to return means to realize I never left.
We come back.
Sure feels like I left because I'm in a hurry to get someplace.
I'm in a hurry to become something. I'm in a hurry. I'm in a hurry to be secure.
And I'm a mess.
And I make a mess out of my life. And everybody that's in my life because they're responsible. If I'm not happy, they're in the way. If something obstructs me and all, that's hell, honestly.
[00:42:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
Now let me ask you this one. Do you think the return would be so sweet, so miraculous, like the revelation would be so. Just awe inspiring if we never got lost in the first place?
[00:42:56] Speaker B: No, that's one of those questions that can't go anywhere because it begins with wanting to be at the end of my pain.
Any question that begins with wanting to be at the end of my pain begins with a mind that's in pain. It wants to escape. Itself.
We must not escape ourselves.
We mustn't have ideas or images. You can't stop the mind from doing it. Gary, don't misunderstand me, but I can tell you, relative to that question, that if what you described was so, then why in the name of heaven has virtually every saint, sage, master, not to mention Christ himself?
They didn't go to a party, did they?
[00:43:42] Speaker A: I don't know.
[00:43:43] Speaker B: No, they didn't. They didn't. Even Christ, you know, I don't want to go through this.
And he knew where it was leading.
But that human aspect of the mind. I don't want to go through this. But then the great lesson is what?
Not as I will, but as thy will.
So now that immense conflict, the root of it, which is a separate sense of self, is brought to the forefront.
That's what takes so much time, is to realize that it's not this condition that's the captivity that's creating the disparity. It's the consciousness that manifests itself in the world that, by and large, it helps create.
So at some point, all the grist for that mill has to get into this crucible, and a person has to start seeing.
I have to stop for thinking about tomorrow or yesterday, about how do I impress? How do I, you know, how do I ensure my life?
That's the other thing.
When we're seeking security, we can't remember that 10 minutes ago we wish we weren't alive.
So first, I hate this. Why is life like that? Why is it doing this to me?
And then that same mind imagines perpetuity and then experiences its kingdom of heaven and can't remember that if it gets to heaven, hell is going with it.
Can you imagine a heaven?
What kind of heaven would it be if you and I were there in this Persona?
I can tell you I'd be this planet, which is actually a purgatorial. This is a purgatorial state, the earth.
And this condition.
Not purgatorial in the sense of negative, purgatorial in the sense of purity, purifying.
Because what are we doing? We're not trying to bring something in. We're not adding something. We're removing the dross, we're separating the wheat from the chaff. All of those metaphors and parables all point to the same thing.
You take a beautiful gemstone you find rough on the beach, that stone isn't going, please put that grinding wheel on me.
Because it wants to remain an object at rest, wants to remain at rest.
But what grinds on it does so for the sake of revealing all the facets that that gemstone itself didn't know. And then it's enjoyable for everybody. And the person starts to realize there's really a lot more facets to this life than I would have ever imagined. But I have to be polished, purified.
[00:46:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:46:30] Speaker B: And I can't purify myself no matter how many smoothies I drink.
[00:46:38] Speaker A: And I like smoothies. Yeah.
[00:46:39] Speaker B: Well, everybody.
[00:46:43] Speaker A: Very true.
Yeah. So on the basis of that question, it's like, let me try and articulate this.
Take a second here.
[00:46:52] Speaker B: Take your time.
[00:46:54] Speaker A: To me, it's like, well, something went wrong. Right. As you kind of described, something went wrong. We. We did it. We messed up. We were the ones that went wrong. We went astray.
So this is how I see it, or saw it at least, is the mistake. Even. The mistake is part of the plan. Even us getting lost. And that's the story of the prodigal son. Like, us getting lost is a part of us, is a part of the revelation.
[00:47:19] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:47:20] Speaker A: Right.
[00:47:20] Speaker B: Finding ourselves. That's correct.
So.
[00:47:23] Speaker A: So go ahead. You're saying that actually, like, no, it's not a part of the plan, per se. It's. It didn't have to happen. I guess it's like, did it have to happen in order for us to realize God? And you're saying, no, this shouldn't have even happened in the first place. When I used to see it, like. Well, it kind of did. It's like it's part of the plan.
[00:47:44] Speaker B: Okay, so.
[00:47:46] Speaker A: All right, so you know what I'm getting at?
[00:47:48] Speaker B: Well, I do. I do. I'm gonna. I'm gonna help you see something.
So here I am, and I'm at the base of a mountain.
And at the base of the mountain, I can't see a lot, but over to the left, I can see some smoke coming up and hear explosions. Sounds like there's kind of war over there.
Over the right. I can see it looks like it's kind of sunny. And I like that I'm going to go in that direction.
So as I begin to go in that direction and I begin to use these words, ascend the mountain spiritually, I'm not really ascending anything.
I'm entering into a new relationship with an order of awareness that allows me to see at first, so many things going on. How am I going to resolve everything that I see beneath me?
But as you go up, as the mind becomes quieter and stillness becomes the matrix that allows you to realize everything, moving through it, you reach a Point where now you see everything going on in quotes below you, but you realize it isn't really below you. You realize it's you you're looking at as you were.
So that the disparity, the confusion is in the idea of time.
Because down below there's all this distance and stuff. I don't understand trying to. At the very peak, one sees the entire picture. And one sees the entire picture because the entire picture is the fulfillment of time. Time, in the true sense of the word, doesn't start or begin, end for us. Everything starts and ends with something that disturbs us.
But when you see everything at once, now you're not. You can't be disturbed. You're aware of all disturbances as an aspect of your nature, not as who you are and something to be escaped.
Now, the last part of this.
[00:50:05] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:50:07] Speaker B: It is said that Buddha used to be asked all the time questions similar to this, like why?
And the story goes, I probably mucked this up because I'm not that familiar with it. He said it's like asked. It's like a man who has been wounded with a poison arrow, and they go to take it out. And before they take it out, he says to the people attending him, don't do that until I know who shot it.
What's the condition? The condition is I'm being poisoned.
What the bloody heck does it matter what the. Where that poison came from? Let me deal with what is, not with might have happened so that then this clever mind of mine can find another way to think about it and then spend another 20 years on some other path, following some idiot guru into some strange nowhere.
Yeah, so that. That those two things put together are my answer to your question.
[00:51:14] Speaker A: Yeah, I get what you're saying.
It's like even if it did happen or it didn't happen, when you are in this sense of timelessness, it's almost like you're above.
Doesn't really matter.
[00:51:27] Speaker B: You are it, Gary.
Not above it, not in you are it. There is no longer separation between awareness, what comes into that awareness, what disappears out of that awareness, and who you are.
So this order, a new order of time, is the same as saying the old order of thought that creates time with every question it asks about why is being, what's wrong with the human race?
The very question postulates a time when I'll understand.
True teachers say there is no time when you will understand.
You are here, you understand, or you don't now.
And understanding isn't something accumulated, it's the entrance into a revelation. That is forever giving birth to an expression of something that is without time. Then you're in a different world. I hope I'm not.
[00:52:29] Speaker A: No, you're good. I'm. I'm following you. This is definitely difficult to, you know, analyze, obviously, but I think that's kind of the point. Yes, but I am following you.
And, yeah, I get visualizations, like, as you're speaking, like, I see it in images.
Yeah, those are quite hard to put words on. But it's almost like another way of analyzing how what you're saying, it's through imagery. And I see us. Like when you describe what you just said is like morphing into this other world. Almost like a wormhole opens just by seeing it. Just by seeing how you just described it. You're in this new world just like that. It's an instant. That's all it takes. Just this instant scene, and then you're in it and something switches. That's what I saw.
[00:53:13] Speaker B: That's right.
Instantaneous Heisenberg.
No object that you place attention on isn't changed by the moment of that attention.
This is deep physics, quantum stuff. In quotes.
[00:53:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:32] Speaker B: So what we're talking about is that the moment. Light.
This morning I was thinking about this light. Whatever light touches, it changes.
It's done. You may not see it for a thousand years, but if light hits something, it's acting on it.
So light that is active touches what is passive. What is passive is stimulated by what acts on it. The stimulation is a form of transformation, of rearranging it.
So if that's true in scale, as above, so below, then what happens when the light of awareness falls on the dark of a mind that doesn't know it's in the dark?
Boom. Wormhole. Boom. Instantaneous collapse of one field and an entrance into another.
Like Rumi would say, somewhere out there, beyond right and wrong, there's a field. I'll join you there.
[00:54:26] Speaker A: This is.
[00:54:26] Speaker B: This is the illusion. These are the images that are very important in one respect.
You know, I. I don't see pictures so much as I get emotional images and how I'm given to express them. And then I just get out of the way. Basically, that's my job.
[00:54:46] Speaker A: Let's get the heck out of the way. I feel you.
[00:54:48] Speaker B: Yeah. What's your job, guys? Get out of the way.
[00:54:53] Speaker A: I'm going to say that from now on. What do you do? I just get out of the way.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: As best I can.
[00:55:01] Speaker A: That's so powerful. And we get out of.
Get out of our way and into the Way with a capital T and a capital W.
Or more accurately, we.
[00:55:11] Speaker B: Enter the way when we die to our way, then that fulfills what you were asking about. Is it already done?
It is in one realm of time.
That's why Christ said it's done.
It's done in one order of time, but in another order of time, it's still unfolding.
Our pain is that we think the order that's unfolding is the order. And so we try to reorder it when it goes against our conditioning.
But when you see that conditioning of this mind is what's creating the pain of an order I don't want. Then you begin, as we've been saying, to let go. You literally begin to let go. Because you see, the only thing you're suffering from is your own estimation of the moment. End of story.
[00:56:00] Speaker A: It is done.
[00:56:02] Speaker B: It is done.
[00:56:05] Speaker A: Might be a good note to wrap this up at, to be honest with you.
Wow. Okay. Well. Hey, Guy.
I kind of just. I don't even know what to say. Is there anything else to say after that? No.
[00:56:21] Speaker B: You and I are new friends, but we share something that we never.
That neither of us know. You bring out of me what you bring out.
You. I bring. You bring. You get it?
[00:56:37] Speaker A: We're reflecting.
[00:56:38] Speaker B: The only thing I would add is that if people are interested in these ideas, come visit me. I don't mean physically.
I have a. I'm ubiquitous across these social nets. With podcasts I have. I talk twice a week for free. There's never anything to join.
Almost everything that my foundation publishes, we do so at almost no cost.
Everything about what I'm trying to do is to help first see with clarity what is true and then with the passion, the inspiration of given, where I am to share that as best I can.
So if you go to guy finley.org classes, I think it is, or just go to guyfinlay.org you even get a free book right there on the home page to introduce you. So follow up.
I'm sure I'm forgetting something significant, but then I always do, and it's not that important. Main thing is, Follow your heart.
And when you see that somehow or other what you were following led you into a pit, then that is the purification of your understanding. And you will know with greater clarity next time what it is that you should be giving yourself to and what you should not.
If you're giving yourself to what is true, you're not going to be giving yourself to the source of fear.
But if fear appears, when you think about giving yourself over to what is true, then you can know that something is getting in there and messing with with it. That's what we want to do. Remember I said purification? Purification.
Only awareness can purify.
Long time ago, they used to farmers would take eggs and they would candle them. Did you ever hear of that?
[00:58:38] Speaker A: No.
[00:58:38] Speaker B: They would take a candle behind the egg and see if it had been fertilized. That was the only way to see what was inside the egg was by putting a light behind it. We want to put a light above us so that we can see the content of this egg, of this nascent soul, so we can see with clarity what's in it that's good and helpful, and what's in it that's interfering with it. Then that light that reveals the obstacle helps to heal the nature that's been clinging to it.
[00:59:13] Speaker A: There it is, folks. Thank you, Guy. Appreciate you so much for coming on here. Keep up the good work, and I wish you all the best.
[00:59:20] Speaker B: And to you, Larry. Perhaps we'll meet again sometime.
[00:59:23] Speaker A: For sure.
[00:59:24] Speaker B: Okay.
[00:59:25] Speaker A: Peace and love, everybody.
Bye, y'. All.
