Episode Transcript
[00:00:01] Speaker A: Well, Natasha.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:00:03] Speaker A: Thank you for joining me today.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: Thank you for having me, for sure.
[00:00:07] Speaker A: So, yeah, getting this thing started, would you be able to give us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Exactly?
[00:00:13] Speaker B: Sure. I mean, who I am is a very broad thing, so I'll skip that for now.
A lot of it will probably come across in what I do and by the questions you might ask.
So what I do is I've been for the last 13, 14 years completely dedicated to providing safe psychedelic experiences. I work in countries where it's legal, that's the Netherlands focusing most of, and there's some little caveats to working in Portugal as it's decriminalized, but a lot of people think that means it's legal, but it's not. There's a whole difference about that.
Um, but I'm half Dutch, half Portuguese, so I feel very, very privileged that I've actually have the nationalities where I can freely navigate and work with these allies and substances.
And in 2017 I had launched a retreat format like really focusing on extensive preparation and integration. At the time it was quite new to have, let's say five to six days format in the underground. It was mostly people servicing, for example, a one day experience and the two compounds that are very, very dear to my heart, who I have a lot of abundance and privilege of working with. Because what I brought in my path is besides the growth and learning, but also really the humanity of our work is 5 Meo DMT and the beautiful allies of Los Ninos or the mushrooms. And in the Netherlands is the sacred truff.
We have truffles that are legal with psilocybin and this has been since the age of 14 in the Netherlands I've been able to recreationally explore psilocybin and that's where it actually all started. So even if I say for the last 13 years I've been cooperating with these allies and organizing retreats and servicing people and at some point we had about two to three retreats a month.
People internationally were coming over and for the last three years I've been really focusing on more of the educational aspect of psychedelics, but also expanded states in general because expanded state can also occur through trance states, drumming to breath work. And there are so many postures, there's so many ways we can come into liminality. And my focus is mostly on supporting practitioners and facilitators in a group work and one to one work, so providing mentorship training and supervision. So that's my, my focus and I Do some keynote speaking around these topics.
My favorite topic at the moment for the last two years has been the dark side of psychedelics. Psychedelics as a business.
You know, psychedelics as in it's not exclusive of our human power dynamics that happen, you know, misconduct ethics.
Yeah, I've been an advisor for different organizations and leaderships. So that's my, that's my current focus. But my background is quite entrepreneurial and always very, very much in search for meaning and purpose. So I've educated myself in different contemplative practices, earth based wisdom, client centered coaching, therapeutic models.
And that is because I've always been curious about the human psyche. Why do we do what we do.
And there has always been a very deep longing for me to relate back to nature, spirituality, stepping away from dogma and institutes.
So related relationship with philosophy and nature been from actually the moment that I think I was about 10 and then at the age of 14, my first psilocybin experience just catapulted me in a direction of more hunger for consciousness in itself and where do we go. So that's a little bit in a nutshell of where I come from, where I've been and where I am today.
[00:04:41] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, obrigado for sharing.
[00:04:45] Speaker B: You have a Portuguese heritage. The both of us, we just shared.
[00:04:48] Speaker A: That's all I know in Portuguese pretty much. So we'll keep it at that. Yeah. But yeah. So would you be able to get into your first psilocybin experience and why it led you down this path?
[00:05:02] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. Well, I mean at the time it wasn't, you know, it was recreational, it wasn't not, we didn't set an intention, it was not like held in a, in a frame, you know, like right now, if anything, I'm super careful to be honest. You know, I think the more, you know, sometimes the more, the more contained and boundaried you become at some points. But at that age, I mean everybody used to do, you know, acid, ecstasy and psilocybin. That was just part of growing up. Coffee shops were always for a very long time one of the first countries where it was legal to, you know, consume cannabis. So our education model on different drugs have been really, really well.
So growing up in the 90s and with a Dutch mother that was very progressive as well on education on drug use and how to use and what not to use and what are the consequences.
So by the time I was open to it, and this is something I think it's very, very important, is there was a con, there was an understanding from my parents that they understood who their child was and their curiosity. And my parents actually knew a lot about it, a lot of what I was doing. So I think always a little disclaimer. And I'm not saying that every 14 year old should go and do drugs and explore. It was just very much, you know, close to to who I was as a. And my curiosity in that. And that also made it that when we bought it in a, in a smart shop, my boyfriend and I at the time, and we took it in the middle of the street and you had like these shops where you could buy CDs if anybody still knows what those things are.
[00:06:43] Speaker A: Right.
[00:06:43] Speaker B: And we just thought like that was a good idea, let's go and listen to music and put headphones on. And of course that's where it kicking in the effects. And because I've had such a strong upbringing to not have any taboos or secrecy at home, I knew like, okay, this is something that's happening that I don't have control over. And we walked to my home and we tripped really, really hard in my home and my mom wasn't there, but I was home.
So that makes it, I think the setting where, you know, we are so focused on psychedelics of the term set in setting, that was a very important set in setting. It's because my base was safe.
You know, it wasn't like I was doing something and maybe I need to hide it and therefore maybe get a panic or anxiety or, or you go, or you mix it with cannabis or you suddenly start drinking alcohol. And this is a lot of the times where things go slightly might go in a, in a different direction or people have so called bad trips. Right.
So. But to answer your question, I wanted to give that context, that first experience, it was, it was very meaningful on a. Something happened in my, I think awareness and curiosity that got opened up and, and you know, I can give meaning to it. Maybe it was something that was already always there. Maybe it was something that was new, that mycelium and that intelligence opened that door. You know, who knows?
I'm not. So I don't need to know what that was. What I do know is that there was a before and an after.
Right. Especially when we go into expanded heads, we know the before and after. And that was a very clear after because in the months after that journey, what had happened, my sensitivity in the metaphysical space or intuition was super heightened.
And I was able as a young kid. I already, you know, was playing with sensing and feeling, healing nature in a way. That I think all of us have. And I think I was extra special in any shape or form. I think we just forget or, you know, some things happen.
So. So I think that that set off something very, very important. And then in the weeks, I think it was probably about. If I've tried to calculate it back more or less. But it was in that sweet window where the default mode network is really, really. And your senses are really heightened. And that honeymoon phase, which is that first 30 days, right, where everything is just more alive. In that window, what had happened as life happens. You know, I had a really, really good friend and her parents were very much hippies and they were following the Hindu tradition and they had put. I was in their house and they have put a vhs, which is a video in the TV of a Hindu guru who was speaking and sharing, sharing knowledge and guiding. I think it was a. Mantras, maybe even. I don't recall what was happening. But something got unlocked and I. It's like almost like I went slightly back into the psychedelic experience where a lot of the symbols, the.
It's almost like ancient symbols. I was just starting to see as he was speaking so in. Yeah, so. So I've never. I've never had that experience again that was just in that specific way. Maybe I've had other experiences, but not in that specific way. So I know that there was a kind of a. An aha moment that happened where things just got unlocked and where I started to really strongly feel and confirm there is more between heaven and earth. You know, we have. Consciousness is much bigger than what we thought. And this was all. At the age of 14, I suddenly knew. I understood there was an understanding around that.
So that. That basically really put me on the path of going into Buddhism and meditation.
And I remember I did a Reiki Masters, which I mean, everybody thought I was completely wool worn crazy. Now it's normal to do yoga and Reiki. Everybody's like, yeah, yeah, sure, you know, yeah, but this was in. So this was in 1995.
Right. So this was definitely not normal at the time. And then let alone my. Your own age group was like, what. What are you doing?
[00:11:33] Speaker A: So.
[00:11:33] Speaker B: So that was the. So that was the onset and how that impacted what I do today. Well, between that phase, it just impacted in a way that I made choices to always develop and ask good questions.
Never take things for face value, you know.
So I went into many different avenues. Like very suddenly I was very. Also very deep in the new age. I went. I went to avenues to learn. Never too Long that I felt that I was too much embedded in it or it became part of my identity. And the moment I felt like, oh yeah, this was it. I was almost like by circumstances put into a different path, you know, and in 2012, at the time I had an A business and hospitality business, entertainment and fashion business all in one.
And I was very, you know, like I was very. My ego was very praised. I was very successful. I'd started that business at the age of 29. It was quite an entrepreneurial accomplishment. I had a lot of people, you know, was able to employ a lot of people, which is, you know, really, really big gift to give people, bread and butter, you know, like pretty big thing at that age to do and a really big responsibility until I. One moment, you know, you have these flashes in life where you get an aha moment or something happens, right?
And I had a moment, it was just a random Sunday and I was standing at, you know, in the place that, you know, it was a venue and I was standing in our place and.
And suddenly I got a flash and I asked myself, Natasha, are you going to still do this at the age of 40? Because I was literally missing something very, very deep. I felt like my intuitive medicine, and I wouldn't even name it at the time that way, but probably the, you know, the spiritual doula or the spiritual curious woman or you know, the medicine woman, that part was in the closet, which was such a funny paradox because the venue that I held was right in the city center of Amsterdam in the queer community. So I was supposed to supporting people, you know, applauding them for the creativity and being, you know, who they were. And at the same time, that part of me was really hidden, you know, so I was like, what am I doing here? This is not it. So I sold everything and I stepped away. And then I really quickly knew, oh, this is the path. This is what I've been since the age of 14, been exploring. And suddenly everything came together and, and very naturally within a year after me selling everything, it became very.
I was doing, supposed to do what I'm. What I'm doing today. So that's 13 years ago. And it was very interesting because I hadn't have any ambition to serve psychedelics or medicines in this way at all. But what happened was that I was having a lot of people on my path that had extreme challenges with psychedelic experiences. So with ayahuasca, the types of journeys that people are having, the types of facilitation challenges that people were experiencing, the lack of good Containers, but also people that were, you know, going on having bad trips with DMT and didn't know where to go and suddenly they were finding me. And I still don't know because I would have never thought 13 years ago that integration coaching was not a term.
I looked for it because I was like, what, what is this? And that was one of the bigger client base that started to form was people actually coming out of really, really challenging situations with psychedelics. And that was actually my training without knowing that I was going to serve at some point. I didn't have that ambition, so I'll leave it at that. I shared a lot and I haven't created the space for you to ask me anything, but that was it.
[00:15:38] Speaker A: Good. Thank you for sharing. It's awesome. Yeah.
I think what you said is the highest use you could say. I think the greatest thing that we get from psychedelics is opening us up to the grand mystery, right? Opening us up to that sense of curiosity.
Just the whole everything that we're in and just questioning, right? At least the potential is there. And then, yeah, it's up to you to carry the torch in that way and follow that path of curiosity.
Now, do you also feel part of the path of psychedelics or just the spiritual path altogether ultimately comes to a head in service? Do you think that's where this all leads to in one way or the other?
[00:16:24] Speaker B: That's a really good question, Gary. I mean, I don't know is really my honest answer, to be honest. I mean, I wish it was so, but I think I can't. I mean, I don't know who said it and I'm definitely not claiming that it, that it's mine at all because I know it's not mine, but there is someone that said, and I think I saw this, I think I don't know where I saw it, but this person, individual said, just because you take psychedelics doesn't mean you're not an.
Right.
So I think it exposes, it exposes our shadow, our illusion, our biases, also our beauty, our humanity, our empathy, our grace. It exposes all of it. It exposes the duality of our existence.
And I believe if we look at what are the universal principles, what are the universal structures, right?
And we might can debate this maybe from different angles, but let's for the, for this moment agree upon that we have free will and that we're sovereign beings, some sort. Maybe if we zoom out, we can be really philosophical about it. But so I think what it does, it still keeps us in Our own choice in our choice point. You know, like our. Our egos are there for a reason. You know, this is the. The way creation is made. Isn't.
Everything has an intricate purpose in. In itself, right?
So if these structures and you have choice, it is really, really important to be able to navigate what is truth, what is projection. What is a fabric of our own psyche that gets played out in that liminality, right? What is actually a metaphysical structure? What is maybe actually, you know, something that is universal within those structures or each. Each part of consciousness taps into a layer. I call it. Let's call it. I call it a lot of the times the dialects of God, right? We tap into different dialects, different realms, different parts of consciousness. But it doesn't mean that all of these things are benevolent.
So do people then go into service?
I think a lot of people that facilitate have a deep longing to be of meaning and be of service because they've understood somewhere, maybe consciously or subconsciously, what it means to be a wounded healer. And they come from a specific type of pain and know what they missed, right? So when you've understood a kind of a pain, you also understand what very intricately, physically, what it is to be seen, held, and feel safe.
So you would want to give that.
So through our pain, sometimes we're fueled to do service, right?
So that happens. But our pain, if it's not, if we don't learn to work with it, ally it, humble it with our egos, then there is also a big group that gets maybe the Messiah complex or, you know, is convinced that what they're doing is the healing.
I think all parts are part of transformation and have an impact. I think, you know, even. Even the mo. Like if you're in a group setting and suddenly there is someone passing by on a motor and you hear a motor and there is silence, and suddenly the motor, you know, how many times have we had that in kind of a journey where the most mundane thing and suddenly that really did something to us or it brought back a memory that is a sacred. That is medicine, you know, so the taking away, the importance of the one that is maybe leading or guiding in that sense, I think yes, you have a responsibility to keep a container safe, and people put that trust. And there is a lot of complexity in that.
However, does everybody want to be of service? I don't know. I think everybody longs to be seen.
So that might fuel service.
You know, is that good? Is that bad? I leave it to the listener that's good.
[00:21:07] Speaker A: Long to be seen along to be loved.
[00:21:09] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:21:10] Speaker A: Long. To be held.
[00:21:11] Speaker B: To be held. To be appreciated. To not perform. What if. You know, what if we. We come. We are in a space where suddenly all of us are internally safe.
Would. Would we even do the things that we would do? That's my question today. I just posted it on Instagram, to be honest. But seriously, I was thinking, what if I feel. And it was an honest reflection. What if I feel so safe with myself that I. I don't need that much? Would I still create?
It's an honest question, you know, because a lot of the. What fuels. Is kind of trying to get out of or change ourselves.
And I think with psychedelics, you know, there is a big ask that we ask individuals to do, which is step into a place where there's no control. And it questions all our safety nets and our coping mechanisms. Right.
That's why I wonder if it's even for everybody, really. But yeah. So I don't know where we're going right now with this, but that was my brain. My brain just went somewhere.
[00:22:15] Speaker A: No, it's good.
Well, go back to service.
[00:22:20] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:22:20] Speaker A: I believe in one way or the other, we all serve. And that doesn't necessarily mean we serve in the way of being a teacher or facilitator or a podcast host. But I think maybe I'm a little naive. I think in one way, the other, we come to a place of service and that is actually.
That is out of safety. Like we feel safe by serving. Does that make sense?
[00:22:50] Speaker B: Yes, yes, yes. I hear what you're saying. There is a beautiful formula that I like to lean into to is.
I think.
No, I feel. And I know, because this is what I've witnessed is. And I've witnessed also in other people when. When we. When we train people in.
Within expanded states. What I see happening is there is kind of a purpose and a deep fulfillment that by our service or what we providing impacts someone else.
[00:23:23] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:24] Speaker B: And witnessing that there is no bigger. It's almost like there's no bigger kind of a fulfillment. It's not, you know, the money on your bank account at some point, that's not fulfilling.
You know, maybe it gives you certain kinds of freedom. But, you know, the more there is more. More pressure and, you know, there's. Everything has got its own kind of stresses and. And structures attached to it. Right. But witnessing that, and sometimes I think even in the subtlety, for those of you who know the Netherlands and Amsterdam, you know that we are like crazy bikers.
We bike through our cities here and Amsterdam's become absolutely a crazy mayhem, which I'm part of, by the way. I'm not. I'm part of the crazy bike person.
But what I tend try to do is not to get too engulfed in the city and actually slow down and see if I can create at least two eye contact moments as I go somewhere and smile.
[00:24:22] Speaker A: Yeah, that's service.
[00:24:24] Speaker B: That's exactly right. So it's not only when someone pays me to hold a retreat.
Right. That's. It's not easy, but it's almost easy. It's in. It's where it's where it's most needed. That's for me, that's real service. So when you see what you do impact someone else. And then to me there is another layer to that, which is a more devotional layer is your relationship to God.
Right. Because when you're in service of something that is bigger and you surrender to that. And for some people it's the word God or universe or life or God is whatever you see as the ultimate consciousness. Right.
For me, that is very, very important because I think we lost our connection to sacredness and we lost our connection to ritual and initiation and community.
And it was through something that is bigger than our egos that helped us together.
Right.
So, yeah, service. Yes.
[00:25:28] Speaker A: Yeah. And I think that's how we.
That's how we get out of the maniacal motivations of our ego, of our small self is in a way, we give ourselves to somebody else. And I think that's the essence of service. Putting it very simply is like you give a little bit of yourself, a little bit of your energy or attention to another human being.
And quite simply, I think that's what life's all about. I mean.
[00:25:58] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:59] Speaker A: Right. And that's what it means to serve God at the same time, you know, that's the same thing.
[00:26:03] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:26:04] Speaker A: I think that's all. You know, if God wants anything from us, it's to just be there for each other as much as we can. I know that sounds corny, but really is the truth.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, there's so many. And there's so many intricate layers into. Into that as well. And, and how psychedelics play a role in what a lot of people reconnect with the mystery and with wonder and. And how deprived we are. I mean, I've seen over a thousand people in. In ceremonial setting with an. With psychedelics. Right.
So that data of seeing that people coming in and sometimes they don't even know the hunger for that connection. They don't even are Aware that there is a hunger for it. But there was a, there was a lack of meaning or there was a kind of what is my purpose? Is a lot of the time a question.
And when that awe and wonder comes in, and even if it's the awe and wonder for mountain in front of them, you know, it doesn't all have to be the angels came down and they sing a beautiful opera. Right. That's not the great mystery in a way.
[00:27:10] Speaker A: Right.
[00:27:10] Speaker B: It's even connecting with nature in the way that so many people do.
And that appreciation to me is an act of sacredness.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:27:21] Speaker B: And that is, that to me is such a big fuel to witness and see. Okay, we did something good here today because you know, people felt a little bit of grace when there is lack of grace in our society. So much by amen.
[00:27:38] Speaker A: That's what the world needs, is coming back into the sacred, realizing that this is all sacred.
And yeah, psychedelics definitely do that for sure. It's horrible when I see pictures painted of them as drugs and you know, all of the propaganda of the drug war from the 60s and 70s. Because the truth of the matter is that's what they do. Potentially not for everybody, not a guarantee.
[00:28:03] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:03] Speaker A: But for a lot of people in the right circumstances, in the right situations, right set and setting, they provide one with the realization of the true.
Just. It's just awe. That's it. That's what I get from it at least. It's just a true awe of just being alive, quite simply.
And that's what we need. Yeah, we need that connection and then we take that connection, that energy, that wavelength into the goings on of the world with each other essentially. And that's how we create a better world.
[00:28:35] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Now we're done with the podcast.
[00:28:37] Speaker A: We're so that's it everybody.
[00:28:40] Speaker B: Thanks everybody. See you next week.
No, and I to add to that is to me is also like gives you the potential to experience. That doesn't mean of course that people all experience it. There are so many variable experiences and I also want to just give a little nudge and recognition to the people that have had really challenging experiences and life changing challenging experience for years that they had to cope and get support and you know, so, so there's some, there's also that end, you know, of it. And so, so for those that have experienced challenge and are still dealing with those challenges, hearing this can also be quite activating because you know, it's like, oh, I didn't experience that or I want those people to feel Seen as well because it's, it's really, really hard and it can be extremely isolating while psychedelics. And one of the, you know, compounds that I love so much, which is psilocybin, is such a big connector, you know, it's, it's, it connects our, our brain in different ways, but it also connects us as humans to each other, to nature. It's a qualities connector. So once I think. No, I, once I feel that once you've gotten that glimpse, that memory, it's almost like on, like, let's call it on steroids, you know, like voom. That is on what I hope people do is, and this is where integration is so important, is to cultivate that quality into everyday life where you can tap into it without the external support. Because I think that's the ultimate.
It will give, it will give you that. But don't go back to it every time to experience that.
And a lot of the times it was, you know, like we've had this. I think if people are on social media and you're in psychedelic interested, you've probably seen what has come out now about the DMT realm putting, shutting people out. Right?
[00:30:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:30:40] Speaker B: Which is such a great meme. I love that story in itself, like, yeah, good. Why? I don't know. I have no idea. You know, like I would not pretend to know. But it's not only dmt. I've seen it with other plant medicines and fungi doing the same kind of thing with people. And the messages at that time were sometimes like, you've come here too often, you need to apply it. You're taking space for other people that need it more. Those were literally answers from, you know, the plants in a way.
[00:31:12] Speaker A: Right.
[00:31:12] Speaker B: So I don't know if the DMT realm is that answer, but I true believe that. Yeah, you have the experience and most of the time people's tendency is to discard, discard about 80% of the experience, you know, as just a trip. Not seeing that every single visual feeling, color, taste could mean something. If you digest it well, it could be a lifetime of digestion. Right.
So then applying that wonder and awe in everyday life is the way you would honor the, the gifts of, of your journey.
[00:31:53] Speaker A: Well spoken.
In all in all, I feel as though the spirit of these plants are on our side. Right?
[00:32:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:04] Speaker A: Somehow, some way, it's benevolent. Even though one may have a rather intense experience or a quote unquote bad trip, it's all for our good, our greater good. Like they're not evil things, they're not you know, they're not drugs per se.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: There's a special quality to them that I feel like they're helpers.
You know what I mean?
[00:32:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:26] Speaker A: That's what I find very precarious about psychedelics. It's like they're. Their spirit is on our side somehow.
And they give you what you need, not what you want.
[00:32:35] Speaker B: And it can still be hijacked by power.
It can still be put into bad use.
You know, it's not like. It's not like, oh, you know, you're using me as a tool and this is what's going to be the effect of it. We don't know, if we zoom out, that the bad use of it might actually be part of the purpose of it. Like, what if we, you know, what if we don't really don't know. Right. But if, If I just zoom in in the experience, I've seen really bad Shamans and curanderos hijacks people's energy fields when expanded states. We've seen what they've done with LSD and the military, you know, like, so it's not like the benevolence, it's the way it's used.
It's not like the door is closed for just this, you know, it's still the. And this is why. The free choice or how to. How to actually work with it as humans.
[00:33:35] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good point.
[00:33:36] Speaker B: Right.
[00:33:37] Speaker A: It's all about intention.
[00:33:38] Speaker B: It's all about intention. Exactly. And there is, you know, this is also sometimes what I share with people, especially more on supervision. Practitioners that work, work with me in supervision. I've got sometimes the really the questions around how do I know what's really truth? You know, how do I know if this is not. And I always say where it goes wrong. Besides the energetic. Like that could be a very, you know, more metaphysical conversation. But to simplify it, a lot of the times, if you feel yourself you're in a different level, and let's say the ultimate is our relationship to God. That's just, you know, hypothetically, like, even if people are watching and listening, this is not your belief system. Let's put that hypothesis. If that's the ultimate truth. Right.
Then what a lot of people do is with expanded states, with plant spirits, with elf guides. I don't know, you know, call all of them in. Right. Angels. What you see, we have a tendency to make ourselves smaller and them knowing more just because they're in a realm that we don't understand yet from this human perspective fully.
So what we do is we give our power away.
And I believe this is where we. There's an equality in there. You need to be able to cultivate a kind of a discernment. Because if I make it really simple and I say, gary, no, I don't know if you have a partner, but imagine you have a partner, right? And you're chilling at home and I knock on your door and you open up and I just come in and I say like, hey, you know what you should do? You should divorce your partner. And you go like, what the Natasha or who are you? You know, like where are you from? Who are you? Who do you think you are? Get out of my house.
Right? You would never expect and definitely you would not three months in go like, oh, maybe she had the truth, you know, maybe she knew more than I did. No, you go like, this is a crazy person.
Right?
[00:35:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:35:40] Speaker B: So I always say, like use that as something really simplified. How do you sit with the messages, with the insights? Take your time and don't give suddenly that realm like an all knowing good.
Because there's still duality in there. There's still dynamic power dynamic and there's still forms of kind of ego structures as much as we have as our human. It's just different.
There's an, there is, I think in a lot of the realms there's an agenda as much as there is here an agenda. I don't think it's that different. I think, I think it's different but just we are just not able to understand it.
I remember seeing this is a few years ago, so I think it's still on YouTube because it was so good and I think it was, went super viral. It was a really great explanation about the different dimensions. Dimensions about two dimension, three dimensional and four and how the, the, the 2D would preserve this, would observe the 3D like oh my God. And we would just look down at the 2D go like, oh, that's two dimensional little puppet. And it was such a great, great explanation. And I would say look at that as a visual to understand that you just might not have that perspective. And suddenly that four dimension, three dimensional thing looks amazing. Like, oh, that's like the next thing you know. But it's just a different realm, a different part of our dialect.
[00:37:03] Speaker A: Yeah, different dialect of God.
[00:37:05] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly.
[00:37:06] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah.
Well that's an interesting point that you bring up how there still might be agenda or intention coming in from the other realm.
That makes me wonder, I mean this is kind of going out there but I think we should go there. It's like, what are these. If there are other beings, there are other forces that are interacting with us. What do they really want from humanity? You know, like, what's really going on here? When we communicate with them, they give us messages.
What's the end goal? Right. And I'm not asking you to answer that because that's a big question, but that's just. That's just something that comes up with me all the time. It's like, if we are actually in communication with these other beings, right. If that's a fact, or at least a really strong feeling, what's going on and why are we so important to them? Why do they want us to communicate? What's the. What are we really doing here?
My simple explanation is they want us to join the family. They want us to, like, link up and join that.
The whole. The whole cohesion of what they're in, you know, I think there's like a. We're supposed to connect not only to each other here, right? Not only supposed to love each other, but I think we're also supposed to connect with these other beings and have this, like, this, you know, what is that called? Like, where you don't speak and you communicate.
[00:38:22] Speaker B: A telepathy?
[00:38:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Like we're supposed to have this, like, telepathic relationship with them. And that's something that I think we've lost. I think we come from that in the ancient world, you know, with the gods and the spirits and things like that. I think we're supposed to reconnect with them and they help us. And maybe we help them in ways that we can't even imagine either too.
[00:38:41] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Well, I mean, I think if we look at things like our clairsentience, you know, like our clairsense, you know, clear hearing, clear tasting, clear feeling, clear seeing.
I think we have. It's. It's an. I think it's a natural ability to us.
And maybe some people, through their lineage, you know, have more heightened skills and they have skills in other. In other parts. You know, I think maybe some people have more skills in this part and other people have that skill. But I do believe there is a truth in that, that these kind of qualities we have forgotten. Untamped and probably been.
The word that I would like to use is that colonialized in our own humanity in that sense, you know, where. Where we've been hijacked from a lot of understanding and call it ancient technology, you know, and even our viewpoint of the Earth and our viewpoint of our different cultures and our earth and different continents and how old and what kind of technology there was and how much we somewhere know. It doesn't make sense, but we don't know, right? There's so much. There's also maybe hidden or lost or other types of meaning, but it fascinates. One of the things that fascinate me a lot is when people on different cultural backgrounds, different places, different times meet similar kind of deities or parts of consciousness where they have similar kind of dialogues with.
And that to me is the most amazing kind of, you know, like the little scientist in us who wants to create data.
Right. That's part of my curiosity as well, is wow, how do we, how could we map that out in such a way? And I know there are actually quite some people out there that, that are doing that, but this is such an, such an important thing about our psyche and at our collective consciousness, which, you know, Carl Jung spoke about. And there's a lot around that, how we, how we match these kind of similar experiences.
That to me is a lot of proof.
And then there is also quite some people who have had, and I've seen it myself with individuals in experience that I've guided is where people get a certain type of knowledge where I go like, wow, how to solve a problem in something or something to do with the earth. And you wouldn't expect that that's the person that was, would receive it, you know, so it's like sometimes you think, oh, it's a scientist that will get the equation to solve something. No, sometimes it's, you know, the single mom with three kids who's barely making ends meet.
You know, so it's, it's, it's, it's a very, to me, those things are very, very fascinated. I get super fascinated by how that evolves and how that impacts and what we can develop so much more with these skills in that way, especially with psychedelics, you know, there is a lot of skills that one can develop with it. There is, you know, I think a lot of the focus is of course on mental health, which is amazing. Of course, I'm totally pro.
Right. However we are, we have again narrowed our focus and our experience with it because there are many alchemists and people from different traditions and African traditions and knowledge and South American traditions who really understand that there is a different realm where you're navigating and where you can create an alchemize and do things in and learn things in that are way beyond the effects that it has on our psyche.
Right. So and that is a super untapped topic. Now, I'm not an expert in that topic at all, but I have enough peers and I've seen enough things to know that these are things that people really do and they're really tapped into it.
And that to me has my most curiosity and that in the long run, it has amazing effect for veterans and their healing. I'm so happy with that. But what makes me sad is that we even have veterans.
[00:43:19] Speaker A: Yeah, right, exactly.
[00:43:21] Speaker B: That is. I'm like, like, okay, great. I really want to help everybody. Of course. I would never want to deprive anybody. But why do we even have veterans? Can we now not work? So this is. Again, we're not working on the root cause of the disease in our. In our society, in our systems, really.
[00:43:38] Speaker A: Yeah.
Very well spoken. That's a funny point. I mean, it's sad, but also funny how you.
How you just said it like that because I never thought about it like that. That's good.
Hopefully in the future will lead us to a point where we don't have veterans. Maybe that's the insight we'll get. We shall see.
But yeah, that's what's very intriguing to me is psychedelics have the use of helping us out with the mental ailments. Mental health.
[00:44:07] Speaker B: Mental health.
[00:44:08] Speaker A: And then. Right. In a very practical sense in that way. But then. Yeah. And the other element of it is we might be talking to aliens.
[00:44:16] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, exactly. And we might be able to create kind of structures or solutions for problems.
That we. Because we're putting. We're putting our. Like our lens is widened in our perception. Right. But I think not everybody is. Has the ability to do that in that. In those realms. I think, I think it needs to be. It's almost like, you know, I can train in Kung fu, but I will never be a master.
Right.
So there are people that are. Call it chosen or they have the better skills to become masters at it. You know, an Olympic level. Right. I do it once a week for my hobby, you know. Right. Like, no, I don't do kung fu, but I was just giving an example.
[00:45:13] Speaker A: I wish.
[00:45:13] Speaker B: I do want to do comfort Zam. It's funny that I'm saying it out loud, but yeah, martial arts, you know, like, some people go and become masters at it. Like go to the Olympics. Some I'm really masters at teaching. And some of them are just as a hobby every week, you know, and doing in their. In the dojo. So. And they're all fine. They're all absolutely fine. But I do believe that. For there is within the realm of the ability to be actually an alchemist with it and explored as an architect and maybe create and navigate and understand conscious and impact there. There are, you know, priestesses and wizards out there doing it.
They are. They, you know, that is an absolute truth in it.
But if we open that. If we open that clan kind of worms, I think, you know, I'm happy we've started at PTSD treatment, right? Depression, let's NOCD and you know, and all like, let's start there first as an. As an initiatory process of getting the public really open to ritual and liminality.
That's really what's lost, right?
Liminality. Being in a liminal space with. With our community.
[00:46:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
And that's what we're illuminating too, is that not necessarily there's other realms, there's other dimensions, and it's like a different place.
It may feel like that, but really what one can come to find is that place has always been there. These other realms aren't so other as we thought. And that is something that we're regaining is the reconnection to that spirit world that isn't another world. You know what I'm getting at? It's like this. It's a reintegration of where we came from. It's like a part of our being that we've neglected for thousands of years. Who knows why? You know, maybe there's dark forces at play. But yeah, it's a part of us that I think is a very integral part of what it means to be human that we're slowly and slowly coming back into.
And yeah, the process starts off.
You know, that's kind of like the end goal is realizing that we're part of the. The greater one mind. And there's many dialects or dimensions to that one mind. But the process starts off by just getting out the junk. Right. Just getting the stuff out of the human least the conditioning and all the. All the.
Right. It starts off with that. And then what comes along is the magic. You start to feel the magic and sense the magic in our life and.
Yeah. And in that way, it all unfolds.
It all unfolds very naturally. You know, like once you get the junk out, then just the natural. The magic just naturally flows in. And it doesn't even feel magical too. That's kind of. My point here is it's like maybe at first, obviously, because it's like you're opening up the aperture, but really it's just. We're coming back to a sense of normalcy, a normalcy of what, what the human experience is supposed to be about. I don't like supposed to or not supposed to, but I really do genuinely believe it's a great element of our being that we've neglected. And hallelujah to us at least starting to bring that back into our consciousness, into our society, into the whole world altogether. Because I think there's no other way. Yeah, thank. We have to bring the magic back
[00:48:58] Speaker B: 100 and I think, and I truly believe the amount of times that I've heard people disclose what they were able to witness in those states and the awe and wonder and what was it? What was this close to them of these parts of.
Let's call it the entities of grace, you know, from our planet and beyond.
And that, that to me it's like almost like oh, we got another one. There's hope, you know, like. Because what does that actually create? I think it's the quality of hope.
[00:49:35] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:35] Speaker B: Because if we, we. We've we've been so neuro. Linguistically programmed indoctrination for so quite some generations, you know. And I think the whole fear and this is what I see when people prepare for a journey is like a lot of the times we have the fear, the fear of fear itself.
Yeah, right.
So it's through when we get in contact with something of grace in the broadest sense of the experience. There is a sense of hope and connection which is I believe, the antidote to the dogmas and the fear that is in the world because that makes you untouchable in a way.
And I've, you know, I've had my own really deep experiences with that and I, I will, I will share a little bit because I think it's important to sometimes share for people to hear in the right moments.
But the thing when we are, you know, like let's call it for simplified under attack by dark, you know, and these could be fear situation or if you believe in entities or you know, the enemy in the broadest sense of the word, you know, the propaganda, the, the systems are polit.
Political systems, all of that. So let's call it that kind of dark.
The one thing that it hooks into is when you agree upon it internally somewhere with you.
And what is the antidote to that is your authenticity.
It's, it's because there is a frequency. So people think that for example, gratitude and love are really high frequencies. You know, there is this thing in our system. I think there are. But love is very complex. Love Is more complex because love is actually transactional thing we do with each other, which is, you know, we can debate about that, but it's fine. It's that. That is what. You know, there's.
You give me that feeling, I give you that feeling. You know, there is a. So love is a very complex thing, you know, especially parental love. You know, like there's a lot is a complexity. So I don't want to love in itself. I think appreciation and gratitude.
What I've personally seen in expanded states and how it was explained to me was, is that is actually much higher frequency. Even if I don't like to say sometimes we don't have the right words. It's not higher as in better.
[00:52:09] Speaker A: Right.
[00:52:10] Speaker B: At all.
[00:52:10] Speaker A: At all.
[00:52:11] Speaker B: Because we sometimes try to measure like a pyramid kind of a thing. That's not it. Right. Because each. Each are part of the same experience and building blocks. So they're as much as sadness, anger, sadistic thoughts. You know, let me name those two because they're also part of the construct.
Right. But our. Our authenticity in service.
And this is the thing is in authenticity in service, that is. And if you're able to be in a state of joy with it, that is the best protection mechanism ever for anything.
So if people really want to understand more about energetics and how do I work with that is. Yes, you need rituals and we need certain types of behaviors and our focused awareness to really know where we're going. This is why prayer is so actually one of the most powerful things we can do. Because the first thing that existed, you know, was the word of God. You know, so it's. It's a word. Right. So it's in that sense.
And this is. Prayer is in all traditions.
It is not related to an institute or, you know, it's an all practice. In all indigenous practices. Prayer is the.
The technology.
[00:53:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:31] Speaker B: So when we work with these, with ritual focused awareness in service, repetition, knowing how to use words from. How do we. How do we program when we say no or without. Those are two different things for our brain. Understand. Understand that a little bit more, you know, and then paired with. You are in a state of joy and inspiration and authenticity and your expression of who you are, you know, that's the protection.
That's it. That. Because that's your power. That's you in a state of complete power and divinity.
So that's my. That's what I've learned and it took me quite a long time to understand. It's only, I think the last two years that I've come to understand because I've had experiences that I had to deal with situations and there was no smudge, no woo woo that could deal with that.
But this, this was the anti.
[00:54:32] Speaker A: Well spoken. Yeah. And the beauty of that too is no matter the situation or circumstance, no one or nothing can take that power away from you.
[00:54:41] Speaker B: Effy. Exactly so. Exactly so there is a way, you know, where there is that power is given and, and it can be, in a very smart way we can get completely. You know, and this is why it's important to know what your weaknesses are, what your addictions are. You know, how you relate to lust. Do you relate to food, to envy? Like, how do you relate to all of these human qualities that brings us into kind of a lower consciousness.
It's not that we don't have them, we all have them. But how do we relate to it? How do we befriend them? How do we make sure that they're not at the driving seat?
Yeah, exactly Right. And it's not that we don't have them. And especially, and this is the thing, if, when there is shame attached to it, then we're even more prone because shame brings us really, really low taboo or shame is like, you know, we hide things.
So it's finding that balance, you know. And I think looking at what is your virtues, what is, you know, your actions mirror your. What you say. It's. It's when nobody's watching, you know.
[00:55:50] Speaker A: Yes.
[00:55:50] Speaker B: It's the little things that matter. At least that's how I try to live my life, you know.
[00:55:55] Speaker A: Of course. Yeah. That's really all we can do. That's the irony. Right. We talked about, in a somewhat grandiose manner of the different dimensions and dialects of God.
[00:56:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:56:04] Speaker A: Other realms communicating with spirits, yada, yada. But when it comes down to it, we come back to earth and we're human. And that's really how we honor the higher realms and the higher parts of ourselves is we honor the humanness. We relate to our humanness a little bit differently. And it's not to have it be in the driver's seat, like you said, like your will, your intention, your authenticity is in the driver's seat amongst the goings on of the humanly stuff. And yeah, that's how we.
That's how we take the power back. Yeah. Really, exactly.
Yeah.
Wonderful stuff.
Yeah. That's the irony.
That is the irony of the whole psychedelic path. What I've come to find is we go so high just to come back down,
[00:56:49] Speaker B: Gary, that Is so true.
I have not been more of an advocate for our human eccentricities and human connection, our shared humanity now, than I've ever been before. 100%.
Yeah.
[00:57:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
Some sort of joke in there. Some sort of cosmic joke.
[00:57:10] Speaker B: Exactly.
Yeah.
[00:57:14] Speaker A: Wonderful stuff. Well, I think that's a great note to wrap this up at, to be honest with you.
Do you have anything else that you want to say before we stop recording?
[00:57:24] Speaker B: Well, you know, if we. We. One of the things that we shared today was about awe and wonder.
And I would invite the listener or the person that's watching to maybe the next time when, you know those moments when you. You are maybe by the beach or in a mountain, and there is a moment where there is a breeze or something shifts, and we all have had that experience, and there is like, the softness of the breeze touching our skin, or there's suddenly a silence of the birds, and suddenly you stand still or you just have that, and it's really fast.
Right. And there is this sense of connectedness that you experience.
That, to me, is what we should cultivate more. So when you are having that feeling, really be present with it.
You know, sometimes I have that feeling on the bike in Amsterdam. I just feel. I feel it happening, and it's like a breath, you know? And you can call it grace, you can call it. You're con. You're tapping into the interconnectedness with nature. I think you're tapping into the field where you're in resonance with it. We can give it all these terms and ideas about it, but put that all to the side and just feel the feeling.
[00:58:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:58:39] Speaker B: So I would invite the audience to give themselves permission that when that shows up, to. To really. To really be present with it, because those are the moments that sometimes help us to go through a challenge that we might have in our lives. Yeah, right. It's where we find that stillness. And in that stillness, we might find an answer to a challenge that we have, or a pain or an illness or someone passing. You know, I think it's those moments of stillness that matter and give us meaning. So that's my invitation.
[00:59:11] Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah.
Remember that. Remember those feelings? The feelings of alignment. It's the word I like to use. The line. It's. Everything's just going according to plan, it seems.
[00:59:21] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. It's like, oh, yeah, I'm on. I'm on that flow. I'm on that wave. Yeah, yeah. And appreciate that. Really savor it.
[00:59:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
Ride the wave. Know that it's real, too.
It's real.
[00:59:35] Speaker B: It's real.
[00:59:36] Speaker A: 100 realer than real.
[00:59:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:59:40] Speaker A: Well, Natasha, thank you for joining me today. This was an awesome talk. You're an awesome individual having me.
[00:59:45] Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
[00:59:46] Speaker A: For sure. Keep up the awesome work and that's it. I wish you all the best. Peace and love.
Peace and love, everybody.
