Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Yeah, getting this thing started. I think I already asked you this probably in the first podcast that we did, but maybe your answer has changed since then. Would you be able to give us a little bit about what you do and. Yeah. Anything else that you want to give us?
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Yes. So I give talks about peace in daily living and I talk about the compassionate heart.
And I have been doing this for a couple of years now. I think the journey started in 2019.
This is something we discussed last time. And ever since, I have been interacting with people, talking to them.
I used to write initially, then I started making videos, then I started talking to people.
So I just go and give talks and I share my stories, my experiences, and whatever the insights I received and just talk about, you know, the other teachers from Advaita, like Nisargarh Tamaraj and Ramesh Balsekar, Jiddu Krishnamurthy.
I do talk a lot about Ramana Maharishi too.
[00:01:22] Speaker A: And I see him in the background.
[00:01:25] Speaker B: Yes, yes, he's there. Even the Buddha is there.
So.
But yes, I personally do not feel that I follow one particular lineage or tradition very strictly.
I'm more about the compassionate heart. And ultimately I believe that's the.
That's the. That's the final, you know, that's the final journey. That's the final destination. Destination, you can say. Yeah, I see.
[00:01:55] Speaker A: So all roads lead to the heart.
[00:01:57] Speaker B: All roads lead to the heart, yes.
[00:02:04] Speaker A: So how would you describe the compassionate heart? I know that's kind of a big question, but what, what does that mean, you know, when we get to that destination? What does that look like? What does that feel like to you?
[00:02:17] Speaker B: Something very ordinary, something very simple, nothing complicated. It is basically end of conceptualizations, end of trying to know what is right, what is wrong. It is this deep knowing that I truly cannot know anything in totality.
And I simply accept the flow of life as it happens.
And with that, my resistance to the flow disappears and the resistance is the mind.
So then what naturally opens up is the heart space.
So heart space is the non discriminating space where I completely accept myself, the organism, the way it is designed, the way it functions. And I also accept others the way they are designed and the way they operate.
So that brings in a lot of space for friendship, compassion, understanding, and an integration, a harmony in daily living, which is done through relationships, through associations, through friendships, as Ramesh Balsekar would say. So compassionate heart is an awakening where the intellect subsides ultimately, because intellect is sort of the last nose where it tries to figure out the reality or it tries to, you know, crack the code of life.
So when that gives up, the separative mind is like, okay, I cannot do this anymore. I cannot figure this out anymore. So then that sense of separation begins to loosen. And what opens up is the compassionate heart. So Ramana Maharishi would say that actually the mind melts into and merges into the heart.
[00:04:21] Speaker A: Yeah, Harmony. It's a good word.
Yeah, it's a harmonization.
Because what does that imply? Harmonization implies order. Right. There's some semblance of order.
And I think before the realization of love, of the compassionate heart, we live in a reality of disorder, of just chaos and dog eat dog. And there's nothing going on. Right. Nihilism, cynicism, it's just like, yeah, you know, what's really going on here? But I think once one does tread the path of love, you can see, oh, it's like it's all being ordered by this, by this harmonic.
Is that the word harmonic? Yeah, harmonic love, harmonic compassion. It's like that's what's bringing it all into place here. Go ahead.
[00:05:14] Speaker B: Yes. So it is again, as I said, you know, end of conceptualization. So when I'm. When I'm talking to a person, a friend, a loved one, a relative, or just anybody I associate with, I'm not carrying too many concepts about them. I'm just being with them. That is harmonization.
So I'm actually meeting them without forming an image of them, that they are this way, they're that way, or, oh, maybe they eat this kind of meal. Maybe they indulge in substances, this and that. No, those filters are not there. Now, yes, I may have my preferences about what I want to engage with them where I don't want to engage with them, but I sense a harmony where I'm not averse to their existence.
And, you know, I operate with compassion, as much compassion as is possible in the moment. That means I am completely present with them in the moment when it is, whenever it is needed.
[00:06:28] Speaker A: So it seems like to me, presence and love.
[00:06:32] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:06:32] Speaker A: Are the same thing. They're synonymous.
[00:06:34] Speaker B: Yes, they're synonymous because presence is not discriminating. Neither is love.
It is only the mind which discriminates. And, you know, mind is calculative so it will keep a score. Okay, this person does this, does that. So I must do this, do that again, if that is to be done. That can also be done in a compassionate way.
You don't necessarily, for example, if I, let's say, don't drink and a friend of Mine likes to drink.
I may not join him in a bar, but I may, if the opportunity allows, I may sit with him in a park or talk to him about life or maybe go and watch a movie with him.
So wherever his strengths are, I may choose to focus my attention there rather than in places where I. Which do not align with my values.
So I can still keep my values intact and also respect my own space.
But I also carry compassion for the other.
And wherever I feel the opportunity to connect and to be present, I avail that.
[00:07:55] Speaker A: Well said.
Yeah, it seems like love to me or compassion is something that.
Well, first of all, goes beyond the idea that the Disney movies portrayed to us or that pop culture portrays to us. Right. It's not submission, it's not like pacifism.
It's.
Well, I don't really actually know. And I think that's the point of what I'm getting at here is like we're slowly figuring out what it means to love in our own incarnation. Like what it means to love as Jack J. Or Gary. Right? The flavor of love and being that compassionate heart. Right. In your, in your character. You could say that is the destination. And the destination isn't like a thing that you arrive at as like, I am love now and that's it, it's all over. It's like, right. You're continually learning what it means to love as you're being as your incarnation. And that's the, that's the journey, right? The journey is the destination. It's the cliche, but it's the truth.
[00:09:03] Speaker B: Yes. And Sargadattamaraj said that the road is the goal. There is no separate goal. There is no separate destination.
So you don't have to become a version that is acceptable by me for me to love you. You can just be yourself and you can have all your quirks, your eccentric, you know, your idiosyncrasies, your, you know, you are so, so termed vices, so perceived vices. But it doesn't change anything. For me, yes, I may engage at a different level in the sense that I may engage in certain things, I may not engage in other things, but I will not carry this sense of separation where first thing that drops when the compassionate heart awakens is the judgment.
Why is a person the way they are? Would you just accept that, okay, this is the way this mind body organism has been programmed by the universe.
And the trajectory or the blueprint that they had to go through could have been very traumatic, could have been very tough for them to be the way they are right now. So if I'm adding judgment on top of that, I'm sort of saying that I know better than the universe, I know better than God, I know better than God. That means I am actually usurping the subjectivity of the pure subject, as Ramesh would say, which he termed as the original sin in his, you know, he said that for me, the concept of original sin is usurping the subjectivity of the pure subject, which means that I know better than God, which means I know better, I know for you what is better than God. So you know, when I say that you shouldn't do this, you shouldn't do that, I'm actually acting in that capacity. So I'm not being compassionate there, I'm trying to be better there. And there is a division. There is a division. There is an arrogance over there which is sometimes not very apparent, not very visible, but it is, it is there. And sometimes it can be very strong. And the thing is people are so intuitive, so sensitive, they can, they can immediately sniff it. They can immediately sense when we are acting smart or when we're trying to, you know, tell them what is right or what is wrong for them. So compassion heart just requires presence. What it requires is just listening or just being present there in that moment and allowing the person's pure expression to be the way it is now. Again, it doesn't mean that we have to subject ourselves to some kind of rage or if, you know, we can put up a boundary there. But for the most part, people just want to express and share and being that space for them is for me is an act of compassion. That's what the compassionate, without judgment, without analyzing them. Because you know, in the modern world we are very quick to analyze people, put labels on them.
And what essentially we are doing is when we do that, we are covering our own pain.
[00:12:34] Speaker A: What do you mean by that?
[00:12:36] Speaker B: Well, the thing is, sometimes from what I've seen is when I say that somebody is self centered or because, you know, sometimes I get comments like, oh, your eye seems very strong.
And I say, okay, perhaps it is, let's just examine it, let's. But what is your compulsion to point that out?
[00:13:00] Speaker A: Yeah, right.
[00:13:00] Speaker B: You see, what was the your come. Because if I observe something like that, if somebody's acting in a self centered way, I will probably either point out to the behavior if it is impacting me directly, or I may just move away.
But I am not there to fix that person. I'm not there to tell them what is right or what is Wrong.
The moment I get into that territory, when I try to tell somebody that it should be this way, you should behave this way, you should not behave that way. That's when, you know, that's when I'm putting myself. I'm not in the compassionate heart space. I am in the mind.
And I am putting myself in a position where I'm saying that, no, I know better.
[00:13:48] Speaker A: Yeah. And you're saying that stems from your own pain.
[00:13:51] Speaker B: That comes from my own pain. Because there is something within me that still requires attention, validation. It requires to be seen that. Where is that coming from?
Otherwise Chambana Maharishu would say that it's better to be quiet.
[00:14:09] Speaker A: I agree 100%.
Yeah.
I think the whole path is the path of accountability.
Right. It's really saying that I'm accountable for myself and myself only and nobody else know. It's like fully taking into account that you are.
You're the master and commander. Right. In a way. But it's also surrendering too. It's also surrendering to the process, surrendering to God, surrendering to the moment. But I think that is the accountability, like that's really all that we can do.
[00:14:45] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:14:45] Speaker A: You know what I'm getting at?
[00:14:46] Speaker B: Yes. Now we have hit at the crux of this issue.
This is what Ramana Maharishi said. He said, you be worried about yourself.
He didn't even use the word worry. He just said, be concerned about yourself. Do not try to fix the world. Do not try to fix anything. Any person.
And this whole outward movement of the mind is designed in a way to protect its own brokenness. It does not want to face its own brokenness. So it projects outward, you know, in different forms.
But from what masters say, they say that spirituality requires us to actually move inwards.
That means instead of shaming, blaming, or, you know, creating resentment towards something external, if you just go within and see where are those things arising from, then there is a higher possibility to touch on the compassionate heart. And then first compassion will be towards your own self. You know, the unloved parts. The parts, the things that reside in the shadow, giving them space to surface to see what's actually going on.
That brings a lot of relief.
So your peace is first. Your well being is first. Now it sounds a little selfish in the, you know, when we talk about it because there is this whole narrative that no, we must think of the world or do things for the others. But the thing is, if your relationship with yourself, if our relationship with ourselves is not harmonious, if you're not if there's no order internally. How can there be an order externally if I'm not, If I do not love myself for who I am, if I don't accept myself for who I am, how am I ever going to accept anybody else in my life? How is my relationship ever going to be harmonious with. With the other? It's just not possible because, you know, the content which is there, which wants to be seen, which wants to be acknowledged, will be distorted and projected as anger or rage or jealousy or malice.
So internally, you know, I would be.
I would be wanting to be seen, wanting some sort of a grief as an outlet. But externally I'm projecting it as anger. You know, you don't listen to me. You don't, you know, validate my existence and things of those sort.
So, yeah, so the first thing is to. Is to basically, yes, be concerned with yourself.
And the. A very classic example I think is used by many people is like when you are in a flight first, what you do first is put on the mask yourself before attending to your child. Because if you pass out before you cover your child with the mask, then both of you die. You know, the child also die and you also can die. But if you protect yourself first, then you are fully capable of putting the mask, second mask on the child too.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: So attending to our own content, first of all, witnessing our own consciousness as to what is happening is, Is what the masters prescribe. And then we can. Then we don't have to worry about the world. Because once there is order internally, that will automatically reflect as order externally.
[00:18:42] Speaker A: Yeah, so that's flipping the script complete 180.
[00:18:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:46] Speaker A: To the popular paradigm.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: Exactly. In fact, Ramana Maharishi used the same wording. He said that the mind turns. 180. It turns towards itself.
That is the inquiry, who am I?
And he says that that is. That's all that's needed, nothing else.
Because there is nothing you can do to change others, to fix others, to fix the situation, environment.
None of those variables are in your control. You may do certain things, you know, you may make certain arrangements, but the capacity to change the environment will always be limited.
But if you invert within yourself, if the mind gets inverted, then there's more acceptance, there's more order inwardly. So that actually reflects as order outwardly.
[00:19:41] Speaker A: We're kind of getting into the quantum realm, right, that.
[00:19:45] Speaker B: I don't know much about that, but
[00:19:47] Speaker A: I think, I mean, me either. I'm not a quantum physicist, but I think the essence is how you observe. It changes the observation itself.
[00:20:00] Speaker B: Yeah, exactly. Exactly. Yes. The double slit experiment. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So it. It changes the pattern, changes the moment there is an observer. And it's one of the most baffling experiments as to how that happens. I mean, there are different variations, but scientists haven't been able to prove, like, how does that actually happen?
It is as if the particle is aware that it is being observed and it changes behavior based on that.
[00:20:29] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. I think that's what we were touching upon here is like, once you do, you know, you tap in with the ultimate eye.
[00:20:38] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:39] Speaker A: You see through the eyes differently. No pun intended. And yeah, it changes the environment. It changes everything. It changes the world around you just by simply seeing it differently.
And one could say, well, you're just. Does it actually change, you know, the particles? Does it actually change the atoms? Or are you just seeing it differently? Yeah, I think it's one in one. I think it's the same thing. I think literally. Yeah, that's the magic of this whole path is like you seeing it differently does actually atomically change up how it presents itself and how that works. You know, how I would explain that at a physical level, I don't know. I have no idea. But from a level of, you know, I guess you could say subjective.
Subjective experience.
100. That is the case. I can attest to that. I think other people can attest to that. Like the masters of the past or you.
By simply observing oneself, by just knowing thyself going within it changes up everything.
Everything changes. But the ironic thing is too, and you can probably attest to this at that point, it's like it doesn't even matter how it goes. Right. I think that's part of the surrender. It's like once you observe yourself enough, you don't even.
You don't even care to want to change how it goes. Exactly. You know what I'm saying?
[00:22:05] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. So Ramesh would say, Ramesh Palsikar, he says that the true understanding is not to align with one particular flow of life, but to keep up an attitude of acceptance towards whatever flow life presents.
That is something that is true acceptance. That is unconditional acceptance, which actually brings a lot of peace, which brings order, harmony.
It is only when we are fighting, resisting, wanting things to be a certain way, that we encounter suffering.
[00:22:51] Speaker A: Yeah.
It's so simple when we explain it this way, right? The whole spiritual path, in whatever way you want to dress it up in about surrender, that's it. It's just let it all go. Don't try to Control this whole thing. Just surrender to the process. Surrender to God. Exactly. It'll all take care of itself.
[00:23:10] Speaker B: Yeah. The degree of control determines the degree of suffering.
The more we are controlling, the more we suffer. And the more we are open, the more we are accepting towards its natural flow, the more peace, the most peaceful we are. And the more peaceful we are, the more peaceful people feel in our presence, too.
So the compassionate heart, again, it does not offer a choice.
The Jiddu Krishnamurti would call it choiceless awareness. It's like the mind is not functioning at that time. It is just open.
And openness is love. Openness is heart space.
Because, you know, openness, it does not discriminate.
[00:24:01] Speaker A: Yeah.
Have you ever heard out of emptiness arises compassion? That's one of my favorites.
[00:24:07] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
Emptiness is the pathway to compassion, to wholeness, because that emptiness is in itself, is complete.
And, you know, I've heard some teacher using the word empty fullness also to describe it.
And from what I've seen is many people, when they stay present with that emptiness, ultimately the compassionate heart just.
It just comes up.
[00:24:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:24:46] Speaker B: And yes, Then. Then the flow. The flow of life is accepted the way it is.
[00:24:55] Speaker A: And it's so sweet. It's such a sweet nectar. When you're in the presence of someone else that is attuned to the heart.
As you said right before, you can obviously tell when somebody is being very judgmental and they have their boundaries up. Right. We can smell that. We can smell the. But on the other side of the coin, when somebody is very loving and very present.
[00:25:15] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:25:16] Speaker A: It's contagious. It's like, ooh, yeah, this is it.
[00:25:18] Speaker B: It is beautiful. It is beautiful. And, you know, I'll make an admission here that I used to be a lot in the realm of intellectualism. You know, I had to. I had to defeat the argument. I had to win.
And I just. It was so unconscious that. That I could not see how. That even that winning wasn't giving me any relief. I mean, I was just moving away from love. Yes, I proved my point. I may have won the point, but that winning was absolutely useless.
So sometimes I would just be quiet. Even when somebody would say that, you know, you are like this. You do that. And in that quietness, I can still love them.
I can still offer them love, loving kindness, peace, and not pay attention too much to the words, but just open the heart space. Now, I am not concerned whether they want to enter that heart space or not.
That's not in my control.
But I can offer that Presence and sometimes just being quiet with someone, just listening to them, just acknowledging whatever they're going through or whatever their viewpoint is, is for me an act of compassion. And I can give you one example from Ramana Maharishi that, you know, whenever somebody wrote something negative about the ashram or Ramana Maharishi, he would actually pin it on the main board, on top of it. And other people were like, why are you doing this? You know, And Ramana Maharishi would say, he wouldn't argue much. He would just say, you know, they have a right to have an expression too.
Even if it does doesn't go in alignment with the values of the ashram, it's fine, but they have the right to express themselves.
And some of those articles had strong criticisms about Ramana Maharishi, but he wasn't bothered at all. He would just keep, pin it on the top.
And if there was a newspaper article which criticized him, he would actually just place it right there for everybody to read.
[00:27:47] Speaker A: I would love to read some of those.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, I would too. I was trying to find, but I think I haven't been able to till now. But they have been, these have been mentioned by David Godman, you know, who speaks, who was a disciple of Papaji. And Papaji Hwl Punja Ji was the disciple of Ramana Maharishi.
So he has a lot of stories on his website and these were some of the stories which were, which were there as well.
[00:28:23] Speaker A: I heard somebody say it was actually one of my talks and I forget who said it. I apologize if they're listening. Jesus said love your enemies, but he didn't say to not have enemies.
Yes, yes, that's the sadhana. Can we love your enemies but still keep them an enemy? That's a tricky line to tow, but I think that is the path of love.
[00:28:44] Speaker B: Yes, I think we were touching upon this earlier too where we were saying we can still have our boundaries, you know, because, you know, we all are differently programmed entities.
Our programmings are very different. So you know, for example, if you, if you do not enjoy, let's say one particular thing, you don't have to engage in that with that person or if you know that somebody is sensitive about certain topic, we don't have to talk to them about it or we necessarily don't even have to, you know, get along, quote unquote, get along with. We can have our boundaries. The, the only thing is that we don't harbor strong separation from them in, in the form of hate or resentment or malice or you know, getting back, because that kind of energy, it lingers in time as restlessness and irritation.
And every time the mind comes up, it's like, oh, I, I, I will show him. You know, one day he will see. One day she will see.
Yeah, that is not, that is just mind, you know, the fragmented mind and the fragile ego, which is, you know, just looping in the same space. So it, it does not, you know, it just puts you out of presence immediately, whereas the compassionate heart is presence. So the moment you settle down there and, you know, bring your awareness here and now and just breathe and integrate your mind and body, what you see is that it's actually not a problem with what they do.
And I can certainly choose to have my boundaries. I don't have to engage with them, but I don't even have to hate them. You know, I can still love them. Even if I have to love from far, I can still love them.
[00:30:41] Speaker A: Yep. And getting back to the idea of selfishness, it's like that's the only way to approach your own sanity, your own semblance of peace and happiness is by loving others. Which, as you said, maybe from a distance, it may be just from not associating, but it's because you want to help yourself. If you do hold that malice within yourself, the hatred, right. The, the judgment, whatever it is, toward other people.
Yeah. It may be directed at somebody else, but you're actually holding that energy within yourself and you're making yourself suffer. So love is the only way. That's what we can come to see is that loving others and however the flavor is is the only way toward your own peace, toward your own happiness. Right. I think that's what we can come to see if we're, you know, kind of on that selfishness idea. It's like, if I truly want to be happy here, if I truly want to be at peace, it's like there's no other way to go about it than to love thyself and then extend that love toward other people. That's it. When it comes down to, like, you know, and I think this whole thing is about not suffering. Right. I think we can say the whole path is about not suffering. If I don't want to suffer, I have to get all that ill will I have to out of me toward others and just love them. There's no other way.
[00:32:02] Speaker B: That's the thing.
[00:32:03] Speaker A: It's not like we, Right. We don't love because we have to love. Right. That's, that's the law. It's like, oh, I gotta love this person. It's like. No, it's because that's the only way to find some kind of conducive.
Conducive lifestyle, you could say. Some kind of conducive wavelength of.
Yeah, peace, happiness, harmony.
[00:32:24] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:32:25] Speaker A: There's no other way.
[00:32:26] Speaker B: There's no other way.
And in fact, yes, this was very strongly emphasized by Ramesh Balsekhar. And he says that peace of mind in daily living has to be found through relationships.
So what that means is, first of all, I need to have harmony with myself first.
If, if harmony is not there within myself, there is no way I can have any peace or harmony with the other person.
So if I'm struggling internally loving myself, there's no way I can love others, you know, and just attending to my own content, just being present with my own content is an act of love.
If I can be present to whatever is arising within me without creating a judgment, without creating a sense of guilt or shame towards myself, then I'm totally free.
And usually that's where the concept of doership was introduced by Ramesh Balsekar, where he said that the only reason I believe in that concept is because it frees me from this cycle of shame and guilt.
So guilt is I did something bad, and shame is I am bad. So when I keep repeating I did this, I did that, I should not have done that in my past. If I live with those stories repeatedly, I'm reaffirming, my mind is reaffirming all the time that I am the doer.
So I say that I did something bad. So that is guilt, guilt. And the more I say I did something bad, I eventually reach to a point where I start saying I am bad, right? So that shame and then again the, It's a never ending cycle. Then again the shame kicks in the guilt, and the guilt kicks in the shame. So I'm constantly stuck in this pattern of guilt and shame.
And when I'm, when I'm stuck in this loop, I'm always defensive. You know, when I'm standing with somebody, I'm not able to bear my heart out. I perceive the other person as a threat because I'm not, I have not. I'm not attending to my own pain. So I'm always this. And I'm just waiting to, you know, I'm just waiting.
I may be triggered by something and then I may attack. And that's one way to feel.
That's what I have used to feel better about myself, to keep myself safe. But that safety is an illusion.
It never makes you feel good. It destroys peace and harmony in relationships.
And one has to go within at some point, one has to go within and counter that shame, that guilt, and all those trapped emotions and allow spaciousness. So that's why I say compassionate heart means holding yourself in presence first, loving yourself fully, not conditionally, fully. Not because I did this or I did that. No.
Just as I am. My whole worth is not tied to what I do, but it is my being, which is the infinite, and that is what my worth is.
It is not what I have done, but it is how it is who I am.
When I realize that, I immediately break that cycle of shame and guilt. And then I'm able to hold space even for others.
[00:36:24] Speaker A: Well spoken.
Yeah. So would you say these masters that we revere, like Ramana and Nisgartha, are at all times in that space, so they don't leave that space?
[00:36:39] Speaker B: Well, ITI wouldn't say all the time in that space, but somehow their minds are not that much aligned.
The mind does not externalize that much. In other words, they come back immediately.
So, for example, Nisargadatta Maharaj had certain conditioning, certain patterns of, you know, short temper. And.
But again, if you see the content, if you see why he got upset, if you call him and called him names, called him an idiot, he wouldn't get upset.
But if you said that you're not able to understand the self, you're not able to understand who you are, the conscious. The moment he saw that there is something coming between you and the source, he would just unleash all his fury on you.
[00:37:31] Speaker A: You know, that was out of love.
[00:37:33] Speaker B: That was out of love. And there's even one more incident where somebody, he.
Somebody asked a question and Nisargadattam Maharaj got a little irritated and he said, you have been coming here for so long, and how can you ask such a stupid question?
And the person replied, maharaj, I'm asking this stupid question because God made me that way. And Nisargadatta Maharaj just burst in laughter. You know, his laughter was the loudest in the room.
So, you know, moment to moment.
Yes. These people, even masters, showed emotions momentarily because that's part of our biology. We cannot. We don't have much control over what comes up in the moment. In the moment, an anger may arise. Even for Ramana Maharishi, sometimes sadness would arise.
Like for example, if when he heard about his friend passing away, he shed a tear.
And there was one more incident where there was this lady working in the ashram as a cook.
And she had lost all her relatives, including her husband, her children. And then she adopted a young child and he also passed away.
So Ramana Maharishi, when he passed away, Ramana Maharishi held the child and he had an emotional episode. He cried there.
So the humanness never goes away. But the thing is, these masters, they do not live in time.
They do not live in the psychological time that, okay, oh, I should not react, I should not be this way or that way. They completely accept themselves.
So that's what I'm saying. Even when you are totally attentive to your own content, it's not necessary that the content will just go away.
But you will completely accept yourself for having that content.
And it will not evoke that big a reaction in horizontal time as shame and guilt. Because you see this whole cycle of shame and guilt, it happens in horizontal time, not in the moment. Let's say you, you know, you have an altercation with a friend and you say something nasty, okay, in the moment.
Now, you know, when, when your sense of separation is not that strong, you will just immediately apologize and say, I'm sorry, I, you know, buddy, I didn't mean it. I, I just, you know, I just got a little excited and the matter will be resolved there and then finished. Then you're not living with that content anymore. It's finished. But for someone who has that stronghold over the content will say, oh, why did I do this? I should not have done that. I'm a horrible human being. You know, so that's what the mind does when, when it is completely caught up in the conditioning and there is no access to any heart space, it will keep berating itself. You know, I am a horrible person. I'm a bad person. I should not have done this. So it lives with a story.
I did this in the past, these horrible things. That's why I am bad and that's why I don't deserve love. That's why I don't deserve happiness. So what it does is it starts creating these barriers where, you know, people with that conditioning, they just push everybody away and in the form of self protection or safety or, you know, and they constantly feel that world is a horrible place and that people are bad and people operate with malicious intent and they live with that story. And it's a very, very painful condition to be in.
[00:41:38] Speaker A: Because it's not a true story.
[00:41:40] Speaker B: Yes, exactly.
What is false will cause pain and will cause suffering.
[00:41:47] Speaker A: Did you just come up with that or is that.
[00:41:48] Speaker B: No, no, No, I didn't come up with a single thing that I've said up till now.
[00:41:55] Speaker A: Shout out the Buddha. But, yeah, this is truth. Yeah,
[00:42:01] Speaker B: yeah, go on, go on.
[00:42:02] Speaker A: I was just gonna say it's like extricating yourself out of that story, out of that false story, out of the illusion. Yeah, it's like the masters live out was going to say on their own story, but it's not even a story. That's the thing. I mean, it is to us. Like, we literally tell stories. Literally we're telling stories, but they're not even concerned with the story. That's the thing. That's the irony.
[00:42:23] Speaker B: Exactly. You know, Gary, I.
I have come to this realization that I don't even know what state the masters must have been in because, you know, the life circumstances and the trajectory was so different from mine. I can never understand.
Maybe, you know, someone like Ramana Maharishi. Most people say that he lived almost in the place of the self.
It was very hard to actually get him to react. Now, he did react sometimes. I mean, of course, we are all human. The human aspect is always there. So we do react. Sometimes he did, too.
But it was hard for, you know, because he spoke less and there was his. His gaze was piercing. It was as if he could just look into your eyes and, you know, just.
I remember I had a dream. I just had this one dream one time where he comes up to me in his loincloth and has a long conversation. I don't remember a single thing that he said, but I do remember in the dream him having a conversation in my ear. He just got his lips close to my ear and he said something, and the dialogue went on and on and on.
And when I woke up in the morning, I felt as if something was received.
Something was received.
And I started looking up, I started reading. I started, you know, I started to imagine at that time, like, what state these people would have been.
But I don't think I can imagine that or even get to know
[00:44:27] Speaker A: they're in a stateless state, probably.
[00:44:30] Speaker B: Yeah.
Yeah. But there was a lot of compassion from what I see, because even now, when people talk about these masters, they have tears in their eyes and they miss and. And they come and they pay their tributes, which is, you know, it's so heartening to see that.
[00:44:50] Speaker A: Yeah, Yeah. I always pay reverence to the masters of the past, and I feel like they offer something that.
It's gonna sound a little strong to say, but it's what I fully believe that people of this time can't necessarily offer. Like, there's something about the dharma of the masters of the past that I feel.
Maybe I'm naive saying this, but I feel like people that are living now don't necessarily have, like, something that could only happen in the 20th century. Or was Raman in the 19th century?
[00:45:29] Speaker B: Was he.
[00:45:29] Speaker A: What years was he Alive?
[00:45:31] Speaker B: You know, 1960s, 50s, 60s?
[00:45:36] Speaker A: I thought it was even earlier than
[00:45:37] Speaker B: that, but, yeah, it was 50s, I think. Yeah, somewhere around 50s.
[00:45:41] Speaker A: The point is, whatever, you know, before this time, I feel like the masters that came before us, whether it was the 20th or 19th century, there's something about the energy that they presented during the time that they live that isn't quite accessible for some reason. I don't know why. Maybe you understand what I'm saying, But it seems like they. They incarnated, especially in that time, for a certain reason, and left us with that. That sort of imprint on the dharma, and it could only be done during that time.
[00:46:13] Speaker B: I feel so.
I think so, too, because, you know, people like Nisargadatta Maharaj, for example, would sit three times in their hall and actually have talks with people and just, you know, be open to receive offerings, but they never demanded anything, and they invited questions from all without discriminating, without, you know, putting any conditions. And even Ramana Maharishi would, you know, sit in the hall for, I don't know, hours, 10 to 12 hours. He would sit in the hall and take up questions, listen to people performing, you know, different rituals and chanting and whatever was happening. Yes, these people definitely were made of a different substance than people like us or, you know, the contemporary masters who are there. But, yeah, I feel that.
I still feel gratitude that at least there are still some people who.
Who can share and who can, you know, transmit. Some masters still are there who can transmit.
Even if it's not perfect, it's okay. At least, even if it brings a little bit peace to somebody or makes a little bit of a difference to somebody's life that I think it's still worth it, it's still a blessing.
[00:47:48] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. Oh, yeah, there's great teachers. 100. I'm not saying that, but there's something about, like, I wish I could just sit down with Ramana on a podcast. You know, how legendary that would be. It's like, that'd be way too powerful.
[00:48:00] Speaker B: You know, it's almost like he wasn't.
He wasn't a podcast guy.
[00:48:05] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Realistically, I don't think he would accept the invite, but I'm just Saying, you know, I don't foresee that, like, that wouldn't be in their incarnation. Like, that doesn't, that doesn't jive. That doesn't, that doesn't make any sense. I always say I'd like to sit down with Ram Dass too, on a podcast or, you know, Neem Karoli Baba, but it's like that their power wasn't in that. Their power wasn't in the podcasting or having a YouTube channel.
Their power was just presence, actually. Their power was in not really externalizing so much. I know, you know, they wrote books and stuff like that, but their power was just like being them in their time period and then leaving that imprint. And then we talk about it, you know, we talk about their words and tell stories about, you know, how they lived and stuff like that. And that's something that we, if we can't replicate and if we tried to replicate, that wouldn't be, that wouldn't be conducive to adharmic living. That wouldn't be very satvic. I don't feel like our. What I'm trying to say here is my point is like, our place is something different than their place. It's revere them.
[00:49:08] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:49:08] Speaker A: But also, see, like, see it almost as like an evolution in a way to what they presented. Right. So it's like equal reverence, but also at the same time, don't negate your own path and your own journey. It's not going to be the same as Ramana.
[00:49:21] Speaker B: Yeah, true. Exactly. Exactly. You know, if, if, if we try to emulate that, we would be deceiving ourselves.
And they have given us beautiful pointers and they never even said that, you know, you have to be a part of a lineage. I mean, Ramana never had a lineage. He never believed in a lineage too.
[00:49:39] Speaker A: Really? I didn't know that.
[00:49:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:49:41] Speaker A: So he wasn't initiated or anything?
[00:49:43] Speaker B: No, he wasn't initiated. He never had a guru too. He never had a master. He considered the mountain, the holy mountain of Arunachala, as his guru. And he says, says very openly that, you know, he learned from everybody, everyone. So he treated everyone as his guru only.
And I keep, I try to keep the same attitude. You know, sometimes I learn even from children.
So I, I see the guru principle and then too sometimes. And whoever gives me, you know, an insight pointer, I sit with it, I reflect on it, and I find great peace.
So, yes, he did not have any lineage as such, and neither did he create that form of system that you have to his Message was very simple, that you have everything within yourself to be peaceful and happy.
And once you reach that hard space, you know, which is the self, generally, you don't even have to do anything. You just become love. And that radiance itself reaches everyone. Like Buddha said, you know, be an island unto yourself, and then you are the light, and then you don't need to spread the light, you just are the light and naturally shines.
[00:51:08] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:51:10] Speaker B: Exactly.
[00:51:11] Speaker A: Now let me ask you that.
Do you feel as though that is the road that Ramana paved, is not needing the guru, not needing that. That blueprint or that foundation that has been around for thousands of years?
Right. It's almost like getting us out of that.
Almost like a new age, you could say, no pun intended, on new age, but like, literally like a new age of spirituality where you do see the guru in the, in the mountains or whatever. Right. The darshan can be anywhere and it's not needing the traditions as much.
[00:51:50] Speaker B: Well, you know, I. I can only speak for myself in this context.
I do not consider that I do not treat anybody as a guru as such. I learned from many people. I had many teachers, and I learned a lot from them, and I'm very grateful to them for whatever teaching they offered.
But I relied on the insights that I received myself, and they have been my lived experience.
So, you know, I do feel, I think Ramana would say that in some cases the physical guru is needed, is required.
In some cases it does happen. It's not that these people look for a guru. It's just that that dynamic just happens, you know, and that devotion just arises.
So you. You can't even choose that sometimes it'll just happen even in. In present times.
But yes, it is not an absolute requirement.
It is not that everybody has a guru.
For example, Ramana did not have a guru as such, but he spent so much time in meditation, in self reflection, that he received tremendous insights there only.
So I would say that, you know, different people have different journeys, and some people, they do require that, you know, embodied existence to give guidance. Whereas some others, they just learn through suffering.
Like Buddha, Duta learned from suffering. You know, suffering was his greatest teacher. Now, he had teachers before that. I mean, I won't say a solid guru, but teachers who taught him different paths. You know, he tried asceticism, he was experimenting, and then he tried, you know, he had seen the life of wealth and extremes, and he knew that's not the way. Then he tried asceticism. Then he saw that even that's A trap.
Then he found the middle way.
That was his own insight, you know, so in that you can say that he traditionally never had a guru. He just relied on his own insights and the four Noble truths.
[00:54:22] Speaker A: Yeah, it's fascinating to me because I've spoken to people that say you can't reinvent the wheel.
You need a guru. You need the personified guru to get the transmission in a way. Right. To get the actual daran. And then I speak to others that say, you gotta throw that out the window. Right. That's something of the past. Right. Get with the times.
But I believe this is the truth. And what you just said is that it's hard to generalize. You can't. There's no cookie cutter response to that question. It really depends upon one's karma, one's circumstances, on how the guru is seen, how the guru presents itself to you. And it can be in the form of a person, it can be in the form of a book, a children mountain.
However, it's hard to say, it's hard to put in a one sentence structure of how the guru presents itself. But either way, it's the same destination. I think no matter how it presents itself, it's all love. It all comes down to love and surrender, ultimately surrender to God. Like whatever the guru is, is, it presents you with the opportunity to surrender to the divine, the ultimate.
[00:55:25] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. So even, even with the guru, if a physical guru is there, what, what these masters say is that don't use that as a crutch, don't use the guru as a, as a crutch. You know, at some point you just take the knowledge and then move forward and then allow fresh insights, allow for experiences.
That's the real, That is the real thing. Because if you're just using the guru as a shield for yourself to avoid your own pain, then you're actually doing a disservice. So even guru is pointing you to your own inner principle.
Even the physical guru, at least from what I've seen, they're just pointing you inwards. They're telling you that the answers are all within you.
Because you see, it's very simple.
I can try to convince you this is the reality. A, B, C, this is my concept, this is the reality. But it's not going to help you until you have verified it through your personal experience, you know, which has stood the test of time.
So till I keep telling you, no, this is the truth, this is the ultimate truth, you're not going to believe it. And so it is True. With the guru. Because when people come and the guru recites and he shares the truth, people are still. They. They enjoy the. The satsang, they enjoy the talks and everything, but they again go back to the same behaviors and they again suffer. So that going back to the same old patterns, allowing them to, you know, bring up the same suffering, that is where actually the opportunity for insight to happen is, rather than with the guru. Guru is not a magician or not a parent figure who can just, you know, hold responsibility for you anymore. At some point, you just let the guru be. And at some point, I just stopped asking questions to my teachers, whoever I was, and I just started looking inwards to find the answers. And that made a lot of difference because then.
Then what I received, the insights that I received actually quietened the mind.
[00:57:56] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, I think the Buddha had it right in that suffering is all of our guru in some way, because we all suffer. We all go through it.
[00:58:03] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah.
[00:58:04] Speaker A: So, yeah, if you can look at that, look at one's own suffering, that'll teach you more than any outward guru could ever teach you.
[00:58:12] Speaker B: I think exactly what suffering is going to teach you is actually that's why they say in the Buddhist traditions that suffering is like a jewel. Even J. Krishnamurthy said that the suffering is like a jewel. We don't know how to suffer. We don't hold that compassionate space for the suffering.
We try to avoid suffering, and in that avoidance, we completely lose ourselves.
You know, we just strengthen our defenses, we strengthen our patterns, and we keep living unconsciously. So suffering keeps showing up.
It just keeps showing up. It doesn't stop. The universe keeps sending more and more suffering.
[00:58:57] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:58:58] Speaker B: The moment we learn to hold a compassionate space for the suffering and accept that, okay, this is it, there is no more suffering then.
So I would put it this way, that Buddha would say that the pain will always be there. Pain is a part of life. There is nothing you can do to avoid pain.
So pain is like the first arrow that hits you in the leg, that is there, and we have to live with it in this world that there is no stopping that pain.
But then there is a second arrow that hits you, and the second arrow is.
It's bitterness about the first arrow. Why am I in pain? Why did universe send me this pain?
What wrong karma I have done to be in this pain? Now what we are doing is we are stubbing ourselves with more and more arrows.
That's called the thinking mind, you know, through this obsessive thinking. Why me? Why me? You know, it's all me oriented. It's all, you know, the self oriented.
[01:00:09] Speaker A: Victim.
[01:00:10] Speaker B: Yeah, victim. Why me? You know, I don't deserve this. I deserve happiness. I deserve better life.
So with all that dialogue, we just, you know, all those arrows, we are, you know, putting it, stubbing ourselves with it.
But then when we totally attend to the first arrow without creating these dialogues and just holding a compassionate space for the pain, okay, Pain is there. It is bearable. It doesn't feel good. You know, being honest, being open, being vulnerable about it.
Okay, it does not feel good. No, this sucks. It doesn't feel good. You know, a heartbreak has happened. Yes, it doesn't feel good. I love the other person. They left me. No, it hurts me. I miss them, you know, I really miss them. I'm longing for them.
We're just allowing that space. I'm. Right now, I'm feeling very lonely. I'm feeling very alone.
We're just holding all of these things in a very compassionate space. So what we're doing is we're just removing all those arrows now the pain is there. We cannot do anything about it. But there is no suffering because we already are in the compassionate space and we can see all these thoughts and we know that we are not the thought, we are the spaciousness. We are the consciousness in which the thoughts appear.
[01:01:38] Speaker A: Let what comes come and let what goes go. Yes, A wise man once said.
[01:01:41] Speaker B: Exactly, yes. Let it come, let it play, let it go.
That's the impermanent nature of thought. But the one that is witnessing is the.
Is the changeless. That is what we are.
That is love.
[01:02:02] Speaker A: I think that's a good note to wrap this up at. Jack.
[01:02:03] Speaker B: Jock. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[01:02:07] Speaker A: I just want to say I think that was a very clear distinction between pain and suffering. That though how you just described it. Because a lot of us think pain is suffering. That's not the case.
[01:02:19] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Sometimes we use it interchangeably, but you know, there is a clear difference. Suffering is more in horizontal time. Pain is in the moment.
So pain is momentary. Yes. If, if you like for example, when you hurt yourself, okay, that pain is there. The physical pain is there.
And in the moment you will feel painful. There is no escape from that pain. The psychological pain comes when you create that dialogue. You know, why is it happening? Why did it happen? What bad karma did I do? See, that is all happening in time, horizontal time. You know, all me oriented, me related. So that is where, when we are compassionate towards ourself even let's, you know, take an example of A heartbreak. You know, your partner leaves you, your wife, your husband or anybody leaves you, or they, you know, die of natural causes or anything, you.
Yes, that pain is very real. You know, that pain. And it can be quite heartbreaking in that moment.
But then you see it, you allow for it, you hold it in that compassionate space, and then that dialogue doesn't come afterwards. Why did they leave me? What?
You know, what wrong did I do?
Am I a horrible person? So that is a different kind of a suffering, you know, where we berate ourselves.
So that kind of. That is the true suffering, actually. This one is actually painful. So, yes, pain will show up in life every now and then through losses, through ups and downs, which is part of life.
But it doesn't have to be suffering.
When we learn to recognize that we are presence, that we are the compassionate space, we don't have to suffer.
[01:04:22] Speaker A: Very well spoken. Yeah.
The choice is yours.
Well, this was a wonderful conversation. Thank you, Jack Jaw, for coming on here.
[01:04:34] Speaker B: Thank you so much, Gary. It was wonderful to speak to you and good to see you after it's been. It's been two years. So good to see you again, for sure.
[01:04:43] Speaker A: But yeah, we spoke like, we've been friends for those past two years.
It's the beauty of doing this stuff. Do you have anything else you want to say, though, before we stop recording? You want to just keep it at that?
[01:04:54] Speaker B: Well, I think we have covered the core of it, and all I can say is that.
The final message would be to just allow the flow of life the way it is without trying to modify anything, because nothing can affect you when you are in your compassionate space, when you are in the heart space and the I am nothing can touch you. And you become light for the others as well. Not by your doing, but simply by your being.
And your being is of infinite worth, so you don't have to do anything to acquire it. You just are love.
[01:05:40] Speaker A: It's the truth.
[01:05:41] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:05:43] Speaker A: Thank you for reminding me today.
[01:05:45] Speaker B: Thank you, Gary.
[01:05:46] Speaker A: Thank you.
[01:05:46] Speaker B: Wonderful speaking to you.
[01:05:48] Speaker A: I'll just end with this. Thy will be done. Do you remember that first conversation?
[01:05:52] Speaker B: Yes, I will be done.
[01:05:56] Speaker A: On that note, about you, Jack Jaw, thank you for coming on here again. And yeah, maybe you can have part three.
[01:06:02] Speaker B: Absolutely.
I'll look forward. Okay. Awesome.
[01:06:06] Speaker A: Peace and love. Peace and love.
[01:06:08] Speaker B: Thank you. Same to you.
[01:06:09] Speaker A: Bye, everybody.
