The Path to Peace: Buddhism, Monasticism, and Finding True Happiness with Bhante Joe

[00:00:00] Speaker A: Well, ponte, Joe, thank you for joining me again. [00:00:04] Speaker B: Yeah, nice to be here again, Gary. [00:00:07] Speaker A: It's nice to have you. So, yeah, getting this thing started, I want to go off of this note, get right into it. How would you describe Buddhism or what Buddha taught to somebody that has never heard of Buddhism ever in their life? [00:00:29] Speaker B: Well, it's interesting because the Buddha actually, he gives a sutta in which there's some monks who want to go and teach his religion in a place in which there's no Buddhism. And basically the. Actually it's Venerable Sarah Putta. He says, you know, what would you say to these people in this place where there's no Buddhism? And if they ask you what your teacher teaches and they say, oh, please, please explain to us type of thing, he says, you should say that our teacher teaches the ending of desire and passion. And so essentially that's what Buddhism is. It's the ending of. It's a teaching that leads to the ending of desire and passion, and that's what leads to the ending of suffering. So Buddhism is all about. You could say people often talk about it as a religion that's about suffering. Often I talk about it as a religion that's about happiness because essentially they're the same thing. And kind of your talking about the ending of suffering, then you're talking about a permanent happiness. They're both essentially the same thing. So I think a lot of people can relate to that more. I mean, everybody knows that they're looking for happiness. I mean, it's. It's the hidden reason behind which people do everything. People do everything for the sake of happiness. It's just that they often do that unknowingly. And so they don't have a very good perspective on whether or not it's bringing them the results that they want. So I think when you talk about Buddhism as a religion which is searching for a permanent happiness and teaches that the way to do that is by training your mind not to have desire and passion, then more people can relate to that. So I think that's probably how we would approach it. [00:01:58] Speaker A: So essentially, happiness or bliss is our default state and we're just getting out of our own way. [00:02:07] Speaker B: Well, there is this sutta in which the Buddha says that the mind is radiant, but it's kind of clouded by defilements that come. However, I think for many people, bliss is not their default state. I mean, you can kind of see this a lot depends on the default habits that a person has. So, I mean, these are things that a person has as part of their personality when they're born, and then they develop them throughout their life when they're children and into their young adult life. And actually, these habits form the default of what their perceptions of the world are and the general measure of happiness and suffering that they have. So some people will be happier than others. But in general, if a person is able to cut back on the perceptions that they have about the world overall and bring themselves more into the present moment, then everybody will feel happier and more radiant because of that. So this is one of the things that the Buddha is referring to when he says that the mind is radiant. However, important to know that for most people, most people, their default state won't be bliss. It'll be something that's dependent on the habits that they've cultivated over a very long period of time. [00:03:14] Speaker A: Yeah. When I meant default, I meant like the absolute default of being, of consciousness. And those habits are something that we build out of our own free will, out of, you know, lifetimes and lifetimes of karma, you could say, that have. Taking us away from that absolute default. You know what I'm getting at? [00:03:36] Speaker B: I think I know what you're getting at. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, in Buddhism, it's. He does refer to it that way, that the mind is radiant in general as well. Like, one can try to focus on that in terms of the habits that one's developed, because really, if one wants to get to states of happiness or states of bliss, one has to develop new. New habits if one isn't already there, which is a lot of work. So it's not just a simple matter of, like, going back and just doing one thing, like going back and being aware. It means a rather rigorous process of undermining the bad habits that one has had and then developing good ones in their place so that one's mind can be more at ease and can focus more on the present moment without getting swept up a lot in thoughts of the past and the future. And that's when a person's mind will tend to start to feel more radiant. And it did before. It's a lot of hard work. [00:04:29] Speaker A: Yeah. And that's why people like you dawn the robes. Right. To really take it seriously. That's how I see a monastic. It's like you heard the Dharma and you believe the Dharma fully. Right. They have full faith in the Buddha's words. So that formula that you just described is being followed by you to a T. Right. Or at least trying to. To a T, [00:05:00] Speaker B: hopefully. Step by step. [00:05:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:05:03] Speaker B: Getting towards The T, step by step, I think is the goal of, of many monastics. Yeah, I mean, I think for, for many monks, there's people who become monks, there's a kind of a tipping point and they can't always explain their reasons for it. So in, like in, in. They can't always explain their reasons for it in such a way that you'd be able to say something like, you know, before I don the robes, like I was, you know, like this total faith type. Sometimes that faith builds, which I think you might have been getting at as well or have been encompassed in your statement. And you know, for myself, it was more of a gradual process where I was suffering, kind of had a lot of suffering and I wanted to find some way to stop it. I mean, first I went to study Buddhism and I was really enraptured with the philosophy of it. And you know, I go talking to people about the philosophy and you know, you probably been in conversations with people who are really into philosophy but not so into practice. You know, maybe they seem like they're really blissed out or whatever, but actually just kind of like high on the philosophy and that, that can fade pretty quickly. So that's what I found. After a few months of just talking everybody's ears off then, you know, I was kind of back where I started. So then I wanted to learn how to practice, so I went and learned meditation. And that seemed to have like a more long lasting effect on my, on my mind state than just thinking about the philosophy. So it was actually the reason when I decided to become a monk was there was this tipping point where I was basically using again, I was using meditation, I was using Buddhist philosophy to try to get rid of my suffering. And I wanted it to be a support for my lay life. So, you know, I wanted to be better at school. I wanted to have like good relationships. I wanted all like the basic psychological goals that people have. But there was this one time that I went on a retreat and when the retreat ended, I had this, had this kind of insight, I guess you could call it this feeling, you know, now you're. The happiness that you're getting from going on retreats and meditating is greater than the happiness that you're getting from your lay life. So it was essentially this tipping point where before my Buddhist practice was used to support my lay life and then now it's like my lay life is getting in the way of my Buddhist practice. It was unexpected. I didn't expect that kind of intuition to come into my head and Actually, it kind of frightened me a little bit when it did, so I can't really say that I. I mean, definitely there was faith there. I mean. Yeah, to your point. Yeah, there was definitely some faith. I mean, that. Okay, I knew that this thing worked so far, the thing for me, and I think for some monastics who take the leap as well, there's also a measure of fear. Like, you don't know what you're getting into. Like, maybe this is just some strange intuition that's going to go nowhere. Right. It's like you just don't know. So I'd say those. Those two emotions were there. But definitely. Yeah, you're right. There was this faith and, you know, it's never something that I've regretted that I did take that leap. [00:07:54] Speaker A: Wow. And how long have you been on the monastic path? [00:07:57] Speaker B: I've been a monk for 15 years now. [00:07:59] Speaker A: Wow. [00:08:02] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:08:02] Speaker A: I can't imagine the transformation, the slow [00:08:06] Speaker B: process, kind of training as a monk and practicing as a monk. Yeah, I mean, I think a lot of people think about monasticism and they think about monks, and, you know, maybe they'll think that, you know, all monks are, like, really holy or really enlightened. And, you know, like, they, you know, it's just they had, like, some special karma or some special faith and. Or, you know, some special abilities. You know, oftentimes, you know, it's. It's more like. Imagine that you were going to school for a topic that you liked, right? That one was going to school for a topic that one liked. I mean, you like the topic, but still, the process of learning that trade or that craft is something that has a mixture of both pleasure and pain. Because, I mean, in developing a new skill, there's pain in that. Like, you're sacrificing things for it. You know, you're getting kind of told by your teachers, do this and don't do that. And so, you know, the transformations that happen over the course of any amount of training, when you look back on, you know, whatever transformations have happened, you. Oh, yeah, I learned a lot. But when you're in the thick of it, it's just kind of this thing, like, it's like an educational system where you're just taking one step at a time and maybe you see some incremental progress, but it just feels like you're going pretty slow. It's sometimes after it's like several years that you look back like, oh, okay, I've got, you know, maybe I've learned these new. Maybe want to learn these new Skills that they didn't have before. So it can be kind of like that. [00:09:27] Speaker A: Well, ultimately, you just have to ask the question, right? Are you happier now than you were 15 years ago? [00:09:36] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd say so. [00:09:38] Speaker A: That's all that matters then. Transformation has worked. Yeah. Now, do you think it's more difficult for someone to don the robes and become a monk in today's world than, say, during Buddha's time? Because we live in a rather adharmic world. You know, we're not really inclined to. We're not really inclined toward the dharma by default. But I feel like back in the day when the Buddha was doing his thing, it was more integrated with our society. You know, it was more integrated into our world to honor the monks and revere the monks, and they had a place. Do you think it's actually more of a challenge today than in the past? [00:10:27] Speaker B: I mean, definitely at the time of the Buddha, if you were staying with the Buddha, he was your teacher. That's going to be the ideal condition. So, I mean, that's. In a sense, that would have been easier, right? Like, I mean, in a major sense. I mean, I think the main reason is going to be the Buddha. Right. His presence and his teachings. In terms of the society, Yeah. I mean, definitely ancient India was more spiritual than, say, depending on the society you're going to compare it to than, say, like, America or Canada or, you know, Europe. Right. Modern day America, modern day Canada, modern day Europe. I mean, previous generations were pretty religious. Just they were Christian. Right. So there's going to be additional challenges there. Yeah, I mean, it's going to be more difficult in some ways, in part because there's not as many avenues to ordain. Right. As there was at the time of the Buddha. Or, you know, take it to an Asian country where there's many different opportunities to ordain. I would say that that's definitely the case for Westerners, though. Like, people who are growing up in America, growing up in Canada, they also have some advantages, Right. Like, it's not all disadvantages. I'm not saying advantages over the time of the Buddha, but there are some advantages to Buddhism at its current state in the West. One of them is that Western culture at the present time is relatively affluent. And so most people experience a degree of affluence in which they're not really lacking for food, they're not really lacking for the basic necessities. And I mean, even luxury items, say, like a car, there's not a huge difference between, like, a Mercedes Benz and A Toyota in terms of like the absolute comfort that you get from riding in a Toyota versus a Mercedes Benz. So what it essentially means is that there's actually a pretty good opportunity for Western people at the present time to see the limits of sensuality. You don't really see those limits when you're literally, you don't see them in the same, with the same ease when you're really hungry, you know, or you're like, yeah, you know, you're literally suffering from diseases, from malnutrition or something like that, which is the case in some parts of the world. So it's actually an opportunity. And what you tend to see is that the monks who actually go forth now I've met some monks who, you know, they had some actually very high paying jobs, like they were very talented people and they gave it all up to become monks. It's essentially because it's almost like they're the walking to the end of the yellow brick road and then looking behind the curtain and seeing the wizard of Oz is just this tiny guy with this microphone, you know. So that opportunity exists for people in the modern west and I think when they go down that yellow brick road, when they see behind the curtain and when they finally turn to find a different path, they can be really sincere in pursuing it. Whereas sometimes when something comes to you much easier, like, you know, there's just all these opportunities for ordination. Some people are going to take advantage of that for sure. Other people, it's, you know, it's just there. So it's, it's something that may not be appreciated to the same degree. [00:13:25] Speaker A: Yeah, that's a fascinating viewpoint that the west you would think would be very tempting. And it is, you know, there's endless central excitement, you could say endless stimulation. But you're saying that actually can act as a catalyst. Right. One could get everything that they've ever dreamed of, see Oz behind the curtain and say, well, now what? And now what ideally is the path. So I like that. It's a double edged sword. It's like highly tempting. But at the same time it's also, there's a huge, what's the word I'm looking for? There's like a huge potential for somebody to turn that around and actually follow the, the Buddhist path. [00:14:10] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. [00:14:14] Speaker A: I was, I live near a monastery actually. It's a Theravada and I was at the grocery store the other day. This is just a kind of a tangent here. I was at the grocery store and I saw one of the monks at Self checkup. And I was like, oh, it's no self checkup. But he was holding. He was holding a 24 pack of Pepsi and he was with two women and he had a backwards hat on, but he was in robes. And I'm like, is that the middle way? It was just such a funny sight. [00:14:46] Speaker B: Maybe some of the name of the monastery afterwards. [00:14:49] Speaker A: I'll look it up right now. Hold on one sec. Just so you know, I know they're not all the same, right? You can probably attest to that. Like, not all. Not all lineages are built the same. I gotta find it. It's such a long Thai name. Take a quick intermission here. It's called. I'm gonna try and pronounce this. Wa N Min Ta Rah Rachutis. [00:15:17] Speaker B: Okay, that one I've never heard of. [00:15:19] Speaker A: Yeah, it's outside of Boston. [00:15:22] Speaker B: The one thing is that. So there's two in Theravada Buddhism, also Mahayana Buddhism. What you'll get is this division between monks who live in the city and monks who live in the forest. And so the monks who live in the city and the monks who live in the forest tend to have, like, kind of different approaches to Buddhism. The ones who live in the city are a bit more ceremonial, so they do more ceremonies. The ones who live in the forest are more into meditation and they're a little bit stricter and stricter with the monastic rules. So, yeah, you probably wouldn't see one at the self checkout, kind of. That's. Monks aren't actually allowed to use money, but. Exactly. [00:15:56] Speaker A: That's what I was thinking. This is such a funny sight to me because it was. It was blatant orange robes, hat backwards, with two women carrying a 24 pack of Pepsi. And I was like, okay. Learning something new today about the Buddhist path, [00:16:15] Speaker B: perhaps. He's a luxury sometimes when you. Yeah, [00:16:20] Speaker A: okay, so the goal is to extinguish passion and desire, Right? What would you say are the biggest hindrances? I know that literally there are hindrances. What are the biggest hindrances to us to. To do that? Like, what are the biggest hindrances in the way for us to be able to extinguish passion and desire? [00:16:50] Speaker B: Yeah, I mean, you know, the. The Buddha gives these classic ones, right. Like, at the heart of it all is ignorance. So ignorance here doesn't necessarily just mean like a lack of knowledge. Like you just don't know something. What it actually means is, is this quality where a person hides something from themselves. So you imagine somebody who's like really in love with their husband or wife, right? And then somebody tells them, you know, your husband or wife is cheating on you, say something like that. But they don't want to believe it because they, you know, they really love their husband or wife. So. But still, money is disappearing from their bank account and, you know, people are looking at them kind of funny when they go walking around and, you know, their husband or wife doesn't show up for meetings when they're supposed to show up for them. And so they're suffering. They're suffering as a result of whatever the behavior is of their husband or wife, but because they love them so much, they can't leave them. So, you know, then they investigate. Maybe their husband or wife says something like, yesterday, I was at the PTA meeting. And so they called the other parents who were there. So, no, they weren't there. Okay, that's funny, you know, so, you know, they get a little bit more suspicious, so they investigate further. But sometimes it's not until, if somebody is really in love, really enraptured with something, it's not until the truth is staring them right in the face through their investigations that they're finally willing to let it go. So ignorance has that quality for people. It's one of the, you know, it's the root cause along with craving. People crave for things because they don't want to see the half of it that makes them unhappy. They just want to see the half that makes them happy. Right? I mean, people want to see, like, the ice cream. They don't want to see that it makes them gain weight. Right? They don't want to talk about that. They want to think about it. So that's ignorance. That's probably one of the biggest, the biggest hindrances, I would say, probably one of the ones that affects a lot of people who are born and raised in Western countries is anxiety and fear. So here it doesn't mean, like, anxiety and fear about, you know, necessarily whether one's going to do something dangerous like bungee jump or, you know, maybe like go into a war or something like this. It can be anxiety and fear or the unknown, you know, things that one just cannot control, like whether or not one will have a job or lose a job, like whether or not one will have friends, you know, lose friends, you know, whether or not one's partner is going to stay with one like or not. These kind of things that create this anxiety and fear based on uncertainty. People often don't have a good handle on how to Deal with. One of the reasons is because education in the modern west is heavily based on the, you know, the rational faculty. So people learn a lot about planning, right? Like, okay, we got to plan this out, we got to do X, Y and Z. If you get into a situation that you just can't plan for, that throws your plans off, then, then quite a lot of anxiety can arise for people in those situations. And also oftentimes people are looking for happiness and things that are purely material for most of their life. Because actually I remember still when I was, when I was young, that's essentially what was taught is like the world is just material, you know, everything is material. So if you want to get your happiness, you get it from material things. So when you put those two things together, anything comes to threaten a person's material goods that they've accumulated, whether that be other people, their position, you know, based on their job or based on their status, based on their friends, anything threatens that a lot of anxiety can come up. And so people resort to drugs, they resort to drinking, you know, resort to various things that all the vices that video games, kind of big distractions, whatever it might be, that can take this anxiety away temporarily. And so I think for a lot of people in the west, this can be a big stumbling block, this kind of anxiety and fear that exists that people don't really have a good handle on getting rid of. Part of the reason is because it hasn't been taught from a very young age how to get in touch with, you might say, like the more intuitive aspects of the mind. And those can solve problems better in some situations that are uncertain. And you just get this sense, this is the way that I should go and you know, I better go. That's a very difficult step for a lot of people to take. But oftentimes navigating through uncertainty requires this kind of inner compass. It requires this intuition, it requires this ability to feel a little bit at peace with the changing conditions of the world. And that's something that's really difficult to navigate using just the intellect alone. [00:21:31] Speaker A: Yeah, well said. So essentially we suffer because the intellect invests a little too much in the temporary things, right? We think that is going to bring us this so called happiness, that's going to bring us some semblance of safety or peace. And we just don't see it. We're ignorant of that. Like we don't maybe want to see it, we don't want to see that it's futile. But when we tap into the, you know, the true Seeing when we tap into the true insight, we tap into ourselves, we can intuitively navigate the world in a way. We can navigate the temporary things and not cling to them. Right. Is that the essence? It's like we can, we can kind of go with the flow of the things of our life so that we don't suffer from trying to find peace in the things of our life. You know what I'm saying? [00:22:24] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. I think I do understand what you're saying. Yeah. And definitely there's going to be. Yeah, I mean there's going to be elements of that for sure. Like being able to go with the flow a little bit more. Being able to navigate with the elements of life rather than having this set plan that's just so stressful. Anytime it doesn't go according to plan. And you know, the things that are really difficult to plan around are like people. Right. I mean, you just can't. People have their own abilities to make decisions. You get long term plans that are dependent on people or dependent on people's opinions. A lot of anxiety can get into the air there. So, yeah, if a person is able to be a little bit more intuitive, then this, this kind of subconscious faculty, this intuitive faculty is one that pulls in a whole lot of information. It doesn't chop it up into discrete chunks, it just pulls it in almost in the back of the mind and then it kind of spits out a very simple answer like, do this. You know, it's kind of like this is what you should do. [00:23:17] Speaker A: It's very simple. [00:23:19] Speaker B: Yeah, people can get more in touch with that then. Yeah, that can help to navigate that anxiety much more. [00:23:25] Speaker A: I feel that a hundred percent. It's like a super intelligence or a higher intelligence that I feel or just maybe quicker. I don't know, it's like a precursor to the intellectual, to the rationale. Does the Buddha describe that at all? Intuition? Is that the booty mind? Like, are there any, any, you know, suttas about intuition at all? [00:23:45] Speaker B: Yeah, it's an interesting question. He actually, this came up, we just had a retreat and he doesn't use those words really. So he used, one of the words that he uses rather than intuition is this, this idea of tuning. So there's one sutta in which there's this monk and he comes to see the Buddha with a lot of difficulty. He was ordained in this part of India where there were no Buddhist monks essentially. So he comes to see the Buddha and he's really diligent, he's doing a lot of walking Meditation. And because he's doing so much walking meditation, his feet split open and then there's just blood all over the walking meditation path and like all over his kuti. So he thinks to himself, of all the Buddha's disciples who put forth effort, I'm one. But he thinks, I'm still not somebody who's achieved the ending of the taints. Then he thinks, what if I were to disrobe, to return to lay life and then use my wealth and make merit? And then the Buddha knows the thought in his head, so he disappears from the place where he's staying and reappears in front of that monk. And he says, you know, were you thinking this? Were you thinking about disrobing? He says, yes. So then the Buddha says, when you were a young man, were you skilled in playing the vina? It's like this kind of lute seems like a kind of a sitar that had five strings. He says, yes, I was skilled. And he said, if the strings on your lute were too tight, did it make a good sound? No. If the strings on your lute were too loose, did it make a good sound? No. And he said, in the same way, overly active effort leads to essentially restlessness, and effort that's too slack leads to lethargy. So he says you should tune your faculties to your effort and there pick up your theme. So essentially what he's talking about there is this kind of intuitive process of knowing how much effort or energy you have in your mind and then knowing how to balance all the other qualities in the mind out so that the mind feels like it's in a position where it can stay with the meditation object. And that's not something that you're going to be doing with your rational mind. You're not going to be, you know, looking at a chart and be like, okay, my efforts at like, plus two. So, you know, let's put this into chat GPT, get a math formula, get an answer back, like, what percentage point should I put these other ones up to? And anyways, how would you turn the notches up? There's no dials in the mind that you just turn it up. [00:26:06] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:26:06] Speaker B: So there's this, this idea of tuning in the Buddhist teachings, and that's something that's intuitive, bringing things into balance. It really, you know, the felt sense in a person's mind can almost be like those two scales, those classic two balancing scales where you're just adding a little bit more, you're adding a little bit more until things feel like they're imbalanced. And one more thing I'd add to that. The word for a wanderer, or like a Buddhist monk is samana, and that sama, the word sama means in tune. So essentially the whole life of the Buddhist monk has this idea of being in tune. So you do have this kind of conception of using a faculty that's not discreetly rational to get answers, to move forward in your meditation. But he doesn't use the same words. He doesn't use the word intuition, or he doesn't use the word subconscious mind. [00:27:00] Speaker A: Same meaning. I feel, though, being in tune, right, when you are in tune with your intuition, you are in tune with it all. Yeah, I feel that 100%. I like to say the body is an instrument and you just got to tune it in the right way. And then if you tune it in the right way, you can play along with the song, you know, carry on. [00:27:24] Speaker B: Yeah, definitely. The body is. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So what did you mean by that? The body is an instrument? I'm curious. You can expand a little bit more on that. Well, [00:27:41] Speaker A: it's like we are involved in something as an instrument is involved in an orchestra, an instrument is involved in a song. And you're either playing along or you're playing your own tune. So it's up to us to be able to tune along with the song, the Bhagavad Gita, the song of God. And thus we find flow, thus we don't suffer anymore, thus we float downstream in the river of the dao. So there's many different ways to poetically say it, but it's just like, get in line and it'll all be. It'll all take care of itself, too. That's the thing. I think you alluded to the simplicity of it. It's like if you do do the practices and meditations and the modalities, it's very simple. And all of this comes along the way, all of the insight comes along the way, and you just kind of flow with that, keep going on that wavelength of just intuitive flow. That's what I feel. At least that's how I would describe it, is you do. You do the stuff, you get the gunk out, you get the junk out and empty the recycle bin, you could say, and keep going, just keep going with that flow. Like, I feel as though I'm involved in something. Like I'm not just like an independent. It's not just Gary, Right. I'm in and of something greater than myself. So it's up to the vessel of Gary to be fully aligned with that thing that I am in enough. You know what I'm saying? [00:29:21] Speaker B: I mean, in Buddhism. Yeah. The. The. What you said about flow, I think it brings a. Rings true, especially with what we were talking about with people overthinking things, not being able to manage uncertain situations and. Yeah. I mean, there is this aspect where a person just feels something's right and then they're able to navigate these kind of conditions through surrendering. Essentially, that kind of giving up to a process that they, you know, a kind of a. I say a current that is pulling them in a particular direction. Yeah, that's it. [00:29:56] Speaker A: It's the current, the pulse. Yeah. Surrender to that and it all takes care of itself for sure. I don't think there's any other way either. Right. It's all through surrender. We try many different ways. Especially as a Westerner, we try like, well, maybe this, maybe him, maybe her, maybe this food, maybe this movie. Nope, never adds up. It all comes through surrender. But I think maybe you can attest to this. It's also like not. I mean, you're a monk, so you have a different point of view. But as a layperson, I would say the middle way is also not negating any of that stuff. Don't negate your life completely. Like, don't just drop everything tomorrow. I think as you describe, it's kind of a work in progress. You know, you kind of like, you fade into the monkhood. Do you think that could also be dangerous or cause suffering as well? If people ignore. How do I put this? If they. If they fall a little too much into attachment of non. Attachment. What I'm saying. [00:31:05] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, definitely. Yeah. There's a couple ways that could happen, especially in Buddhism, that it happens. And yeah, one of them can be that people just take the leap too soon and get too hardcore about it, you know, so there was actually, when I was a novice, there was this one. One other novice who ordained with me. We're kind of. You have to spend time as a lay person first. Then you spend time as what they call a novice monk. Then you become a full monk. So it takes two years in the monastery where I ordained to do that. And there was another guy who came in. We were both. We call like novice, not the monks, the layperson phase, where you're taking eight precepts and you're there for a year. And so he just did that for like two months. And he had these stocks that his father had given him in order to support him. I Guess in his old age, as part of his will, he bequested them to him. And it was during the 20002010 stock market downturn or something. There's a stock market. I can't remember the big stock market downturn, but it was at that time. Yeah. What was that? 2008, 2010. So when was that? [00:32:06] Speaker A: Yeah, 2008 I think is when it actually happened. [00:32:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, something like that. Yeah. So this big stock market downturn. And so he joined the Monaster. The first thing he did, he said, I'm just going to give up all these stocks. So he called the stock broker and told them, you know, sell all these stocks. And the stockbroker's like, just wait, you know, this is not the time to be selling your stock. Because the market was at like, it's one of his lowest points, you know, the last decade or so. But he just pushed through, he's like, yeah, sell them all. And then he took the proceeds of that money, whatever he got, and he gave it all away. So about eight or nine months later, he went to another monastery in Asia. And then he ended up disrobing. And so, you know, he didn't, didn't have that support that his father had meant him to have. So he kind of just jumped in with both feet, did it a little bit too hard and you know, like you said, got attached to non attachment a bit too much. It's not that it's necessarily a bad thing to do, to do renunciation, but you know, you want to. You know, as we were talking about, there's a way in which these things can evolve rightly and in tune. Yeah. Some of these things, if you do them too hard, they can be a problem. Yeah. [00:33:19] Speaker A: So even renouncing, I mean, renouncing is the name of the game, right. We could say of the whole path, it's like renouncing vairagya. It's, it's dispassion. It's renouncing everything that you thought was going to bring you happiness, but if you do that in a fake way that is disingenuous to your karma, then that is actually going to build more karma. [00:33:43] Speaker B: Yes. Like some people are doing that kind of thing and it's like they want to be famous behind it, you know, it's like they want to be the top level monk. And so they're going to do the biggest renunciation or they're going to do the most hardcore thing that doesn't seem to work out as well as when it's. It Feels like the ripening of a flower, like the. A fruit that's become ripe, so it falls, you know, almost. You know, you might have to pluck it, but it's. You can tell that the thing is ripe. So, yeah, it's interesting. [00:34:11] Speaker A: Yeah. Again, follow your intuition. Intuition leads the way in all facets. Yeah, I like that, though, is you can't pick the fruit too early or too late. It has to be just right. Because I felt that myself, too, because, you know, when I first gained a little insight, you know, started to have faith in the Buddha and the Dharma, I said, why don't I just don the ropes, just find a lineage and go become a monk. But after some, like, serious deliberation on that, I said, I don't think that's my path right now. At this point, it doesn't feel right. I know I would probably do it and then disrobe like your friend, you know, it doesn't seem right for me at this point. I still, obviously, will respect the Buddha dharma, but to actually don the robes, that's huge. That's a huge change that you can probably agree with that is like, everything is going to change. And I don't think I'm mature enough for that. I don't think I'm. I just don't feel as though, like, intuitively that is the right path for me at this point. So until then, I'm doing this podcast as Gary Lee. My point is, it's like, I think you will know. Everyone will know. Because if I were to become a monk, I think it was how you described it. I wanted to be the monk. I wanted to be the holy man. Right. I wanted to be the Jedi. And that's not the right way to do it, is you got to really feel like you want to do something. And I don't feel it's right. For me, it would be out of ego, ironically. So it would be out of ego to become a monk. This is a rather esoteric question. Far out, maybe unanswerable. Do you ever think, what spurred Samsara? What was the original desire? And I know this is esoteric, right? This is very, like, who knows? I asked this to a monk, though, one time, another monk, and he said, it's an unanswerable question, really, but it's like, what got us into this place in the first place? [00:36:19] Speaker B: Yeah, it's interesting. There's so. In Buddhism, there's a number of things that the Buddha just refuses to answer. And there's these series of suttas. It's actually an interesting question. There's a series of suttas in which they're usually translated as this samsara is without discoverable beginning. So all of them start with this samsara is without discoverable beginning. That's how they're translated. And then they say, just as you know, and then. Can you give a simile? Yes. Imagine how many grains of sand there are from the mouth of the Ganges with, you know, its origin point down to the ocean, says the number of eons that have passed, or even more than that, says, why is that? Because sangsara. And the translation is without discoverable beginning. But when you look at the Pali, the compound word that's used is actually not saying it's without discoverable beginning. It says it comes from an inconceivable beginning. So that's essentially all that the Buddha says. One of the things that's really clear in the Buddhist teachings, though, is that, you know, just leaves it kind of at that. There's some cryptic statements in the Buddhism where the Buddha just doesn't describe. And what he makes clear, though, and what's made clear in the canon in different places, is that the end of samsara is permanent. So when you achieve nibbana, that's permanent. It's not like samsara will suddenly stop and then like, restart and recatch everybody or something like that. So it's one of the skills that you have to develop as a Buddhist monk or as a meditator is to try to learn what questions like, you basically just have to accept you're not going to get the answers to and then just focus on the ones that you can. So, I mean, it is an. It's an interesting point. Like, where did it start? Certainly people are going to wonder that. And, you know, when you dive a little bit deeper into the Pali and those suttas, it says samsara comes from an inconceivable beginning. Beyond that, it's just something that is not going to be possible for someone like me at least, to figure out. I think you need the knowledge of a Buddha. And, you know, he'd probably be focusing people who follow him back on, okay, look at what you're doing to cause yourself to suffer. That's probably the way to focus. [00:38:30] Speaker A: Yeah, it's almost like it doesn't matter. Right? That question doesn't really matter. [00:38:36] Speaker B: Yeah, good point. Yeah, exactly. There's some questions which he describes as being like a thing, thicket of views, a wilderness of views. So, in other words, when you Try to answer some questions. You just get into more views. You don't really come to any habits that lead to the ending of suffering. So he's got this classic list of 10. Yeah. So, yeah, I think you can probably guess about. Yeah, you probably. You know, I've read some philosophy. It's just kind of like going around and around, no proof, and, you know, it just leads to more philosophy. [00:39:03] Speaker A: Yeah, the Samsara of philosophy. That's very fascinating, though it comes from an inconceivable point where it's probably not even beneficial or virtuous to even think about, to even contemplate. Yet Nibbana, we know, is conceivable. I don't know if that's the right word, but nibbana is something that is realistic. You know, it may just be as equally as esoteric. Those two poles, we could say the inconceivable beginning and the destination, we could say of nibbana. But yet nibbana is this. Yeah, realistic, I guess, is the word that comes to mind. It's more realistic for us to be able to contemplate that, to see that as a practicality. Now, how would you describe nibbana? Is there a way that we could accurately describe with our mouth noises this Nibbana? [00:40:15] Speaker B: Well, I think to the extent that it could accurately be done, the Buddha did it. One of the differences is, okay, so if we're talking about the beginning of Sansara, that's talking about priority, a process that you might call like a meta process, right? Like, it's. It's involving the entire process by which all beings wander through, you know, various realms of birth and are engaged in suffering. But if one person attains nibbana, that doesn't stop Samsara. It only stops their journey through samsara. So it's a. It's a different thing. It's not like the complete destruction of the entire reality of Samsara for everybody. It's just that that person escapes. Then in terms of what it means to achieve Nibbana, when the Buddha talks about a self. We were chatting about this on Vinay's podcast the other day, right. When the Buddha talks about a self, what he's talking about is he's not aiming at an ontological description like there is no self in the ultimate sense, which would be equivalent to the philosophy of determinism, because really, if there's no. It means there was no agency behind actions. And what that would mean is that all the Buddha's teachings on karma wouldn't make sense. [00:41:27] Speaker A: True. [00:41:28] Speaker B: You know, just, it would be predetermined, like Samsara, something started up Samsara, whatever it was that started that ball rolling, you know, it's just, it's still rolling. We're just part of the role and that's it, you know, so no need to talk about it. We're just rolling on and, you know, things will roll on and they'll finish at some point for people, presumably. So there was actually a philosopher in the time of the Buddha who had that philosophy and he called them the worst of all. Philosophers compared him to a hair shirt. He said the, he said, this worthless man. Macaulay's philosophy is like a hair shirt said, you know, it's, it's hot in the hot weather, cold in the cold weather, ugly, foul smelling and uncomfortable to dig for. Buddha could lay down some, you know, some insults that were stingers. They were stingers. So in any event, he says, why is that? It's because he denies, he denies the effort, he denies kama, he denies action. But all Buddhas teach kama, they teach effort, they teach a doctrine of actions. So this is what he really took offense to with Macaulay Gosala's philosophy, that everything was predetermined. Now, if you, if you approach the Buddhist teachings, I know self as an ontological position that there's nothing behind experience. A couple things happen. One is that the end spiritual goal starts to seem like annihilation. And there's really, philosophically, it's difficult to distinguish that from annihilation. I mean, you're practicing meditation, you're doing all these things basically to get blown up, you know, and so that's the, that's the whole point. Another thing is that it's, it's indistinguishable from determinism. And the Buddha criticized both of those things. So when we were chatting about on Vinay's podcast, okay, the Buddhist teachings are teleological. They're aimed at an end. He explicitly says, I only teach suffering and the ending of suffering. That's all that he teaches. So he's not trying to teach what the whole world is like, whether the cosmos is finite, whether it's infinite, whether an arahant exists after death, whether they don't exist, whether they both do, whether they need their dues. He's not trying to teach about all the different ways in which the world works. He's trying to teach about the ways in which people cause themselves to suffer and how they can stop it. So his teaching on not self has to be seen in the context of what people do to cause themselves to suffer. And in that context, what he's describing is the process. So that process is one in which where a person has a contact, something, you know, touches. You know, they see something, they hear something, smell something, thinks something. Then as a result of that contact, they have a feeling. So either it's something that feels good, it feels bad, or it feels neutral. As a result of that feeling, they have a craving. Either they want it, they don't want it, or they crave some kind of sensual pleasure. So as a result of that craving, there's clinging. They cling to something. So when they cling to something, that's when the Buddha describes this thing, which is called becoming. So you become something based on what you cling to. So the interesting thing, as we chatted about in Vinay's podcast, there was that clinging, the word upadana and Pali doesn't just mean that you grab something like, you know, grabbing my. My watch or grabbing my cup of water that I've got here, and just grab it. You know, it actually means that you're sustained by it. So the same time you grab onto that thing, you're feeding on it. And so this process of making a self is essentially a process of an addiction. So you're addicted to something, you cling to it, and then you appropriate that. You think that it's yours, and it's really a part of you. It's your characteristic, and then you suffer when it changes. So the Buddha is talking about this process which can actually go very, very deep. Now, when that process is ended, you can't say that a person exists, that they don't exist, that they both exist, that they neither exist. But it's not annihilation. It's not like the destruction of the world, the destruction of everything. So there's this one sutta in which he gets into this argument with this very high God called the Brahma. And Brahmas are like creator gods. They're almost like the Christian God. So he's the first being to show up when the universe reforms, the physical universe, which has some heavens associated with it. And he thinks he created the whole universe, and then other beings get born after him. And they think Mahabharma created us. Why is that? Because he was here first and we came later. It's kind of like this, really. Sometimes the logic that goes through people's heads is almost like this. Like, he was here first. I was like, he created me. It's just kind of just to jump in Logic. So in any event, the Buddha goes up to one of these Brahma's heavens, and different Brahmas will rule over different, we call, like multiverses, different dimensions which have similar universes to them. And so he goes up to his heaven and he gets into an argument with this Brahma, and the Brahma says, okay, I'm going to disappear from you. And he can't disappear from the Buddha. So in other words, the Buddha's psychic powers are higher than this Brahma. Psychic powers. Then the Buddha says, I'm going to disappear from you. So he disappears from the Brahma and he recites these verses. He says, anidasana vinyana is not known through the earthness of earth, the wateriness of water, the airiness of air, the fieriness of fire, the allness of the all. So anidasana means without surface. So it's not like, imagine you've got something like glass. You can draw pictures on glass. It's see through, it's transparent, but it still has a surface. Right? So you can contact that something without surfaces, like space. You try to draw something on space, you can't draw any pictures. There's. But it doesn't mean that there's nothing in space. Actually, there's light everywhere in space. It's just that in order to perceive light, it has to reflect off of something. So this is the metaphor that the Buddha gives for the creation of a sense of self. It's like when you, when you create who you are, essentially what you're doing, you're clinging to something, you're coming into being as a result of that clinging. And he gives a simile of fire to illustrate this. So he says, imagine a fire when it goes out. How do you classify it? Do you classify it as having gone to the north, the south, the east, the west, above, below, intermediate directions? And the Brahman who he's talking to says, no, I just classify it as out. And so the Buddha says, in the same way, when a monk has ended desire and passion, he's just classified as out. But the thing to know about the physics at the Buddhist time was that when you look at the way that they talk about the four elements, earth, fire, water and air, they don't talk about them being destroyed, they don't talk about them like they're destroyed, and like, you know, they're just completely wiped out of existence. So there's no fire anywhere. What they talk about fire, like in the physics of his time, was essentially that it was this thing that got latched onto its fuel, and it burned. As it consumed the fuel, it clung to the fuel at the same time. So that word upadana gives that sense of something that's clinging to its fuel. It's being sustained by it, but it's also trapped by it. And so when that goes out, when that fire goes out, it doesn't mean that it's annihilated. It just means that it's in a state where it hasn't come into being. So it's like light that's diffused throughout the universe doesn't mean that it's not there. It's just that if it doesn't reflect off of anything, you can't see, it hasn't come into being. So when we conceive of Nibbana, we should think of it not as, like the complete cessation of all existence or the realization that there's nothing. We should think of that as the ending of suffering. And the Buddha describes that as a type of consciousness that's not known through the ursnath of earth, the airiness of air, the fieriness of fire, the wateriness of water, or the allness of the all. So it's inconceivable. You can't think about it because it's not known through anything that you've touched before. But it's also not annihilation. So in talking about Nibbana, in terms of the Buddhist teachings on not self, I think that's something that's helpful to keep in mind. [00:49:09] Speaker A: Thank you for sharing that. It's very powerful. Yeah. Because when one doesn't know any better and they read the Buddha's words on anatta not self, it does seem like annihilation. It's like you're just destroying yourself. It's almost like a. Almost like a suicide in a way. Not like literally physically, but it's some sort of conscious suicide. Right. And how you just described it adequately dismantles that understanding of being annihilation. It's something that is truly inconceivable. That isn't even destruction. That's the thing. It's beyond destruction. We could say it's beyond annihilation. It's. It's not that. I mean, I'm not even trying to put words on it, but. Yeah, you just described it very well there, so I thank you for sharing. [00:49:57] Speaker B: Yeah, you made some good points, too. Yeah, kind of. Yeah. You can't conceive it as destruction. Can't conceive it as annihilation. Yep. That's a Good way to put it. [00:50:05] Speaker A: The mind would want to label it like that, though, especially using English. Right. How we were conditioned. It seems like that for sure. But I think the true middle way. Yeah. It's neither creation nor destruction. Powerful. It's interesting, isn't it, that I hear those words? Maybe anybody listening as well hears it. And there's something in me that goes, yeah, yeah, that's right. It seems so outlandish in a way, especially to the linear thinking mind rationale. But when you really follow the Dharma, there is something within us, something very, very deep rooted, that resonates with it. It's the intuition again. It's that intuition that I think just knows that that is the truth, that there is that essence of. That essence of understanding. Nibbana. Already. It's almost like I already know what you're talking about. It's like you're just reaffirming me. You're just letting me remember. Right. I think that's what all teachings are. At the end of the day, a good teaching is just a reminder for yourself to stay on the straight and narrow, keep going on the path. You know, we all know. Deep down, I think we all know we all have that essence of knowing. It's just like, how. How well are you listening? You know, I don't know. That's just what I feel. [00:51:41] Speaker B: Good to have those reminders, you know? Yeah. And I mean, yeah, there is this. This. This sense people can have. Oh, yeah. This feels right. And then I think also what. Yeah, what. What the Buddha emphasizes in the Buddhist spiritual tradition. Okay. Feels right. You've got to do work. [00:52:02] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Can't just feel right. Yeah. [00:52:06] Speaker B: The, you know, keeping the precepts, practicing meditation. Yep. Breaking the addiction. Right. Because that's where the suffering comes from. [00:52:16] Speaker A: I mean, we're having some fun here. So I'll entertain this. It seems like there is another realm being created. Maybe realm isn't the right word because that implies like, location or different dimension. But it seems like what we're doing here is creating something that's never been done before. When we align ourselves with Nirvana, Nibbana. Or maybe is it. That's hard to say. Right. So I'm kind of like, this is off the top here. Are we creating something that's never been done before? Or is it just something that we're coming. We're coming back into the natural state that's always been, you know, because it seems like it's so revolutionary. Right. It's so just what we're doing when we follow the path is just beyond literal comprehension at times. So are we, like, forming something new, or are we coming back into the true essence of. Of it all? You know? [00:53:29] Speaker B: Yeah, it's. I mean, you do have this phrase, right? The Buddha, and at least coming from the Theravada tradition, Buddha has this phrase that the mind is radiant, but it's defiled by defilements that kind of come and cloud it almost. You get the sense of like a. A sun or a moon, which is, you know, covered by clouds, and so you can't see its light. But when the. When the clouds are removed, then the. The radiance of the sun or the radiance of the moon becomes more apparent. A person can see more things with the light that they give off. So I think we touched on that at first. One of the interesting things as well, though, is that he doesn't say that the mind is pure, doesn't say that it's naturally pure, says it's naturally radiant. And so actually, there's this whole process. The three things that a person wants to do as a Buddhist practitioner is to learn to develop good qualities, abandon unwholesome ones, and to purify them. Mind. So the purification of the mind there with the Buddha essentially seems to be talking about is the development of dispassion towards the things that a person's addicted to. You know, there are these things that people get addicted to, right? Like things that they place their happiness on, they're craving for them, they're clinging to them. They've become something because of them. And so in order to purify the mind, they've got to let go of those things. So that's something, when that process comes to an end, that apparently goes even beyond the radiance of the. The mind. Actually, the radiance of the mind is one of the last things that apparently stands in the way of full enlightenment. So when a person's. All the rest of their defilements have been cut, their attachment to their body, their attachment to their perceptions, their attachment to all these various things, what it's described as, at least by one prominent monk, is that it's almost like all of the outflows of the mind get gathered into a single point. And that point is extremely beautiful, extremely radiant, and it's the most beautiful thing he essentially describes in the universe. So he says, you know, you shouldn't think of the final thing that holds you back like it's some evil demon, you know, like, with, you know, huge wings and, you know, horns. He says, it's actually the most beautiful thing in the universe that holds you back from going beyond it. So he describes that as consciousness. And he says, you know, when you watch that very, very beautiful, very radiant mind and everything else has been let go of, it's like almost, oh, you just want to sit there and admire this beautiful radiance, the most beautiful thing in the universe. So you start to notice that there's this rippling. It's not totally stable. It's kind of. The radiance has this rippling to it, and that means that it's not permanent. It means that it's unsatisfactory. So then what he describes is that when you investigate this to the fullest degree and other. Other monks and nuns describe something similar, is that it's almost like the central part of that knowing falls away. When the central part of the knowing falls away. So that's when the whole world kind of almost like flips upside down. And then what arises in the place of the radiant mind is. He says it's indescribably better. He says most people, if they ever get to that stage where they see this radiant mind, they're just going to get stuck there. So there is this kind of double thing in Buddhism that there is. Yeah. I mean, there is this natural radiance to the mind, but that natural radiance is also something that can stop people from going beyond to something unconditioned. And that's something you've got that people have to work at. So. Yeah. I mean, agreeing with what you say in, you know, there's. There's going to be this radiance to the mind. And, you know, probably also you're saying. I think also what you're mentioning, maybe you have, like, an intuition. Okay. There's something beyond the practical steps of that. Okay. The monks describe the Buddha describes also watch out, you know, for the radiance, because you can also get tripped up there, and you've got to go beyond it to something better. [00:57:16] Speaker A: Indescribably better. I like that. [00:57:18] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:19] Speaker A: Yeah. See, again, there's just something that pulls me toward that, that agrees with you. That just says, yeah, he's right. Or the Buddha's right, Buddha's right. [00:57:33] Speaker B: Yeah. [00:57:34] Speaker A: Yeah. Huh. Okay. Okay. I don't know what to say. Let me take a quick breath here. Now, is it being okay with constant rebirth? Like, is it being okay with forever? Is that the indescribably better? Because one could. This. I mean, this is kind of deep again, but this is like there's Two sides of the coin of forever. I like to say people fear being forever dead and there being nothing. Right. That's kind of like the Western thing. It's like you better believe in Jesus or else you won't go to heaven. Eternal damnation. Right. In some way. Or one could look at Samsara as you're constantly being reborn, birth after birth. As the Buddha said, we've lived millions and millions of lives. That's the other side of forever that Westerners are completely on the opposite side of. Right. So is it that indescribable beauty is being able to see the beauty in the essence of forever, no matter what vantage point of it is. It's like you are able to understand. Understand the process a little bit better. And then when you can understand that, you can understand forever. It's a little poetry right there for you. [00:59:09] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, I can see that's. Yeah. Nice to get the twist going there. Yeah, I just gotta wrap my head around that. [00:59:17] Speaker A: I know that was deep. If you want me to rephrase it, let me know. [00:59:21] Speaker B: Yeah, no problem. [00:59:21] Speaker A: Problem. [00:59:23] Speaker B: So essentially, although Samsara does have this. I mean, you made a good point because we often talk about everything is impermanent in Buddhism. Right. I'll think. Or everything except nibana is impermanent. When the Buddha talks about impermanence, he doesn't talk about it like a mark of existence. He talks about it as a perception that somebody holds in mind. So you brought up an important point actually, that the. The process that Samsara continues on in that process itself is something that's pretty stable. It's not like it changes. And all of a sudden you get out of Samsara by like eating, drinking and being merry. Right. Like just one just indulges. It's whatever sense pleasures one wants. And that's going to make one enlightened. It's always this pro. That process that governs Samsara seems pretty stable. [01:00:08] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:00:09] Speaker B: So the. What they're talking about in terms of going beyond that radiance is not noticing the beauty in the forever aspects of Samsara. It's talking about when you've let go of everything that exists in this process of rebirth, the thing that's at the center of it, the most beautiful thing in this entire process, is this radiant mind. This is the most beautiful, stunning thing. There's nothing that tops it in Samsara, but actually that's the thing that's been binding people to Samsara the whole time. It's. What's it's the big boss that's behind everything. So when a person goes beyond that, when that's essentially destroyed, then they become disgusted with all of the processes of samsara, including the radiance of their mind. There's nothing that they see as beautiful in it, essentially like they did before. So when you read the descriptions of some of these monks after they've attained nibbana, so they describe like, they're like, yeah, after one monkey attained nibbana. And then he, he describes how he was so despaired by what he, you know, what he saw. I thought, nobody will ever understand. It's almost the same as the Buddha. When some of these monks attain the final goal they get, they have this feeling of despair, like they just don't want to teach because they're like, nobody's possibly going to understand this. And then they describe their. Some of them develop almost the same knowledges that the Buddha developed, called, like the triple knowledges. So he says, you know, he went and looked at the world and he sifted through all the types of people and saw came. There's some people who understand, but he described as sifting through the world like sifting through a heap of garbage. That's literally the metaphor that he gives. Like, you know, geez, like, you know, after that, their interactions with the world, it's just like the world is repulsive to them compared to what they've achieved. All of Samsara is completely repulsive. So this is the anidasana vinyana, which is not known through the earthness of earth, the wateriness of water, the airiness of air, the fieriness of fire, or the allness of the all. It's outside of samsara. So it's, it's something separate than all of the parts of samsara, however permanent the processes may be. The difference with this is that it's a permanent happiness and not a permanent process. So that's where it's. And it doesn't require reference to anything else. It's permanent, it's happiness. It's everything that satisfies a person in and of itself. It's unborn, it's uncreated. So it's a completely separate experience. It's a completely separate reality. [01:02:40] Speaker A: One could say, yeah, I see what you're saying. So it doesn't even involve any of the deep processes of samsara, of rebirth. It doesn't involve any esoteric meaning, really. We could say that we put behind samsara. It's completely devoid of any of the qualities and experiences of samsara. I can see that for sure. But even those monks are, you know, ones that we can say attest to nibbana are in the world still. No, they are still here, right? There's still. At least we see them, you know, they're still going through the mundaneness of the human condition. So that's a hard one for me to grasp, you know, because are they in the world and not of it? Is that the essence of it? [01:03:38] Speaker B: But you brought up a really interesting point here. And. Yeah, so, okay, so remember we talked about that one story with the Brahma where the Buddha goes, disappears, and he gives this description of Anidasana Vinyana, that's the not known through anything in the world. By the way, the four elements are kind of like a shorthand for all of the physical and mental processes that can go on in the world, essentially, and in some of the ways that they're talked about. So there's another sutta in which there's this monkey develop psychic powers. And he goes up to the gods and he says, goes up to the first, lowest level of gods. And he says, where do these four elements cease without remainder? And they say, we don't know where the four elements cease without remainder. But there's these other gods that are higher than us. Why don't you go and ask them? So he goes up to the. They're called the Tavatimsa devas. He goes up and asks them. So we don't know, you know, ask our leader. Goes and ask your leader, he doesn't know. Go and ask the gods who are higher than him. So he keeps going up, going up, going up. Finally he ends up in the Brahma realm again with Mahabharma. So he asked the Brahmas there, the gods who are living in this realm. He says, where do these four elements cease without remainder? And they say, we don't know. But there's Mahabharma. There's great Brahma, the Father, the Lord, the maker, the creator of everything that's ever been and anything that will come to be, say he knows. So where is Mahabharma? Well, we don't know where he is, but when he appears, there's this shimmering and there's this radiance. And then Mahabharma makes his appearance. And then the suttas are like, it wasn't long before Mahabharma appears. So then Mahabharma appeared. The monk goes to him and he says, friend, where do these four great elements cease without remainder? And then Mahabharma says, I'm Mahabhrahma the Great, Brahma, the unconquered conqueror, the Lord, the Father, the Creator of everything that has been and that will come to be. And he says, friend, I didn't ask you if you were Mahabharah the great Creator, the father and Lord of everything that will come to be. I asked you where these four great elements cease without remainder. And so he does that a second time. And Mahabharma says it a second time, so he does it a third time. And then finally Mahabharma takes him by the arm and he pulls him off to the side, side. And he says, look, these Brahmas think there's nothing that Mahabharma doesn't know, nothing that he doesn't see, but I don't know where the four great elements cease without remainder. And he says, therefore the error is yours in that you bypass the Buddha and came all the way up here. You should go back and ask the Buddha this question. And however he answers it, that's how you should remember it. He goes and asks the Buddha this question, and the Buddha chastises him a little bit. He compares them to this bird that they send up from a ship to go and look for shore, and it flies all over the place. It doesn't see land, it comes right back to the ship. Then he says, your question shouldn't be asked that way. Where do the four great elements cease without remainder? Your question should be asked this way. Where do the four great elements find no footing? And he says, and the answer is this. Anidasana Winyana. Then he gives a poem about Anidasana Munyan. So here he's describing a state in which there's this surfaceless consciousness and the things of the world, although they're there, they can't find a footing in consciousness. In other words, they can't grow there. So it doesn't mean that they can't be perceived. It just means that they find no footing. So you get this. This sense almost like Teflon or, you know, like probably not even the best metaphor. You, like, imagine, like, space, like there's nothing that can find a footing in it, but space is still there. So the. It's. It's kind of a paradox how the monks who have achieved that interact with the world. What it makes clear is that there's a. There's a disjunction, there's a permanent separation between the things that contact them and their reactions to it. So it's not that they don't see things or hear things or feel things. But there's a separation from them permanent, permanently now. So Ajahn Chah gives the simile like oil and water, they don't mix anymore. And kind of, you know, you get water and milk, you mix them together. It's very hard to separate those out. Right. But oil and water, they're both there, but they just don't mix. It doesn't mean that they're not there. So in other words, the things of the world no longer have an ability to affect the mind of that monk. They don't find footing in Anidasana Winyana, but it doesn't mean that they're not perceived. [01:07:46] Speaker A: I see. Yeah, I like that. There's no footing. They're in a free fall. I've heard that, and I felt that from others as well, Where I'll just reference Ram Dass with his guru, Neem Goreli Baba. He said, he's just, there's nobody there. He couldn't find him. You know, he couldn't get him. There was nobody there. Anytime he tried to figure out, oh, this is. This is who he is, it always be one step ahead. So, yeah, I think that's the essence, is there's no. There's nobody there. There is and there isn't. Right. One could perceive that, but there is nobody there. In a. A sort of like a level that is beyond the five senses. We could say, yeah, I feel that interesting. But that's what I like about Buddhism is the simplicity of it. You know, we can go to these high depths, these very esoteric depths, as I go to in conversation, but when it comes down to it, it's don't go to Brahma, stay at Buddha. [01:08:53] Speaker B: Yeah. Keep the five precepts. [01:08:56] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. Keep it simple. You don't got to go far out. I like to, just because, I don't know. That's just the. This is how my mind works, and that's just the basis of the show that I put on. But at the end of the day, is it really useful to extinguish suffering? Maybe, Maybe not. Probably not. It's probably better. [01:09:15] Speaker B: Just the questions you're asking are good. I mean, you know. Yeah, I mean, they're good questions and nice. I think some of those things are important to conceive about because otherwise people think that nibbana is like some annihilation, Right. Like we're working to get annihilated everything, you know, Then they think things are predetermined. Right. And then all these kind of wrong views come into their head. And actually it's really hard to meditate. So you think you're doing all this hard work and at the end of all that, you know, just you're working to get like blown up or something. Yeah. [01:09:48] Speaker A: All of a sudden one day, it's just. [01:09:50] Speaker B: Doesn't sound that nice, you know, it's like it's not something you really want to work that hard for. So, I mean, I think the questions you ask are pertinent and important to. To try to dive into. [01:09:59] Speaker A: Appreciate that. Yeah. Well, help me today. We only got three minutes left on the recording, so maybe we can start to wrap it up. I thank you for coming on here, Monty. I think this was a very productive conversation. We outlined the Buddhist philosophy, I think in a very well rounded way. You know, we tackled a lot of different aspects of Buddhism in the conversation today, and it was a lot of fun. I don't have anything else to say. Keep it simple, that's it. And intuition leads the way. Keep it simple and follow your intuition, everybody. But do you have anything else you want to say, Vonte, before we wrap it up? [01:10:34] Speaker B: Nice to have a chat, Gary. And yeah, glad we could talk about these things, you might say, like deeper truths, but they have very practical value for people who want to meditate for the ending of suffering. So I'm glad you asked the questions and thank you for having me on. [01:10:48] Speaker A: Cool. Well, thank you, Bonte. Keep up the awesome work. I'm glad that we know each other in this life. Truly an honor that we can do this. You know, you're across the world, I'm in United States, and we can talk about the Dharma in this way. It's truly miraculous times. So yeah, don't squander the times, everybody. We live in miraculous times. That's all I gotta say. Thank you, Bonte. [01:11:10] Speaker B: Okay, see you. Take care. [01:11:11] Speaker A: Peace and love.