Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Well, Jaz, thank you for joining me today.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: Thank you for having me, for sure.
[00:00:05] Speaker A: So, yeah, getting this thing started, would you be able to give us a little bit about who you are and what you do?
[00:00:10] Speaker B: Exactly, yeah.
I would like to say that I'm just a 21 year old girl, but a lot of people in my comment section don't like that. They think that I need to speak more highly about myself. But I don't necessarily say that in a negative way. I mean more so in the sense that I'm still learning and to give a little bit about what I do.
I am a content creation creator, but I'm also a researcher and have just finished up my undergrad and moving on to post grad study looking into the nature of consciousness.
And so I kind of just started off by sharing some things that I had learned from a variety of different perspectives. Both personal, subjective experiences when talking about religion and spirituality and that kind of aspect or lens through which we can view consciousness, but then also from a neurological perspective, which is what my background's in. And then also just like tidbits from other areas of science, just things that I felt were kind of all pointing to a unanimous view of consciousness.
And so I have had kind of started, began formulating this theory very young, although I wasn't really aware it was more. So that was the point in time that I started putting these bits and pieces together and then got to the end of my degree and things were a lot making a lot more sense.
And I literally the content creator bit kind of just came about when I decided, well, I might as well just share this with my friends because I find it really interesting. This is what I like researching in my free time.
And then it kind of just blew up. And a lot of people are really fascinated by this kind of alternative view of consciousness that takes into account duality, or I guess what they call in the scientific community idealism, whereby consciousness is viewed as, I don't know if an entity is the right word, but something that exists outside of our just material physical form.
And what's interesting about it, or what I've really enjoyed about the content creation side of things is being able to bring together people from so many different backgrounds, whether that be cultural, religious, you know, scientific, and allowing them to have a space in which we can have these discussions without attacking or belittling or, you know, undermining one another. Because I think at the end of it, you know, if we come to understand the lessons that you gain from this idealistic perspective, specifically around the ego and our anthropocentric tendency to view mankind as superior, but also as there being a social hierarchy amongst us, we end up having a lot more productive conversations, you know, and I think that is really needed both in the scientific community when it comes to unpacking these difficult questions around not just consciousness, but reality and the nature of reality, but also just on, like a personal and also, I guess, political level, given everything going on, I think it would be really beneficial for everyone to just a bit be a bit more open to listening to each other and a bit more curious about each other.
And. Yeah, I just. I've been really enjoying creating a space for people to have these kinds of discussions without, I guess, attacking each other.
[00:04:24] Speaker A: Awesome. Yeah, that's much needed, for sure. Yeah.
Well, thank you for sharing that.
So essentially, you're trying to bring to light a unified field theory or just a unified essence of consciousness.
[00:04:41] Speaker B: Yes.
So as it.
As I kind of learned more about, I guess, consciousness from a neurological perspective, I realized that there were. So one of the leading theories about consciousness at the moment is integrated information theory, which basically proposes that everything has a degree of consciousness, right?
And that our consciousness is made up of the integration of different pathways of information, and that is what gives rise to consciousness. And so I started learning a bit about that, and then, just out of interest, started looking a bit more into Federico Fagin's quantum Information theory.
And once I started looking at that, I thought to myself, these are really similar.
Like, I feel like we're talking maybe if not about the same thing, then we're. We're making parallels, you know, And I think when it comes to science, the point is ultimately whether you are studying physics, biology, neurochemistry, you know, any of these fields.
Nature is one thing, right? Like, we. We have broken it up into these different parts for our own benefit to, I guess, ease the complexity.
But really it's one thing. And so for people to kind of say, oh, well, you know, quantum information theory, that's just quantum physics. And, you know, integrated information theory, that's just, you know, neuroscience. It's like, well, no, we're still looking at the same fundamental layer of reality, you know, and, yeah, so I don't really think. I do think we need to have this holistic perspective, but also that requires a bit more discourse between these different fields we're not currently getting at the moment. Although that's changing. I'd like to think that that's changing as these fields progress and try and come together. But my view on consciousness is idealistic in that I don't think it is entirely limited to our physical form, but it's an ever changing worldview. So I don't, I'm not necessarily fixed in my beliefs and I'm more curious about where they may be right and where they may be wrong. Does that make sense?
[00:07:31] Speaker A: Mm.
So what would you label, or how would you label something as conscious? What does it mean to be conscious? Whether it's a person or a rock? Are they both conscious?
[00:07:46] Speaker B: I think that's quite a complicated question.
[00:07:49] Speaker A: It's definitely a deep one.
[00:07:51] Speaker B: It's definitely a deep one.
I would like to err on the side of caution when it comes to giving what I think purely because of what I just said, like, it's an ever evolving worldview, you know, but as it stands right now, today, I think that consciousness is the experience of what it is to be a thing.
[00:08:22] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:08:23] Speaker B: So I definitely think, and obviously a lot of scientists and things would push back on this, but also many of them would not. Many of them would agree that beings like plants have consciousness. Any living being, I think, personally, has consciousness.
There is an experience of what it is to be that thing. There is an internal, subjective qualia. Right. And when we look at experiments, I think it was with the touch me, not plants. We actually find that they, though they do not have a nervous system and, or a hippocampus and do not learn in the way that we do, they still have the capacity for Hebbian learning or the ability to associate certain stimuli with a certain response. And they can anticipate learned scientists can anticipate learned responses in these plants. Right. So that really does raise the question of, you know, are we limiting our understanding of consciousness to that of which we subjectively experience?
And then I guess by extension, you know, I, I, I'm not saying necessarily that I do think a rock has consciousness, but I'm also not saying that I don't. You know, I'm purely saying I don't know. I don't know. I think until we can come up with a concrete definition for what consciousness actually is, which we haven't done yet, then we can't really go about answering those questions, you know?
[00:10:00] Speaker A: Yeah. Because it really begs the question, where does it stop?
[00:10:04] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:10:04] Speaker A: Because classically one would say it stops at the brain. If nothing has a brain, then it's not conscious, it can't think, it can't make decisions. But, but then you get into plant matter, as you said, and there's qualia, there is learning, there's A sense of learning. Well, they don't have brains.
Right. So then can it go even deeper in? Can a rock make decisions? If it's all one system, I guess what we already described, if it's all this one, just one unified field, at what part of the field is it not conscious? If it is truly all one, which it is, then everything would have to be conscious, but it would just be different layers, different degrees of what it means to be conscious.
[00:10:45] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think that that's what integrated information theory is essentially trying to grapple with, is that everything can have degrees of consciousness. Right. And that degree of consciousness is related to that thing, whether that be living or inanimate, its ability to integrate information.
Right. And then when we look.
[00:11:10] Speaker A: Integrate information. Yeah, yeah.
[00:11:12] Speaker B: And then when we then extend that to quantum information theory, which basically proposes that consciousness is the base layer of matter. Right. Everything has consciousness. And that.
And forgive me for the oversimplification here, but that everything that we experience in the 3D is kind of like a projection of, I guess, consciousness. Right.
Specifically, the description of the. Like it from the bit and everything being made from, at its most fundamental layer, information, then we kind of get this picture of, okay, so if everything is information.
Right. And then consciousness, or at least as we experience consciousness, is the integration of that information, then. Yeah, I guess it raises that exact question that you just brought up, is where, like, there is no bound to.
[00:12:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:12:11] Speaker B: Where consciousness lies. Because everything is information and everything that we see, feel, touch, all matter is integrated information.
Maybe not in the sense that we experience it, but, you know, I don't. I feel like I don't know enough to make a hard call, but I definitely don't exclude the possibility. And when I think about my personal belief system, it definitely does align.
[00:12:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Because it just doesn't make any sense logically to have a cutoff point.
Right. To have.
Right. If it's all just information flowing, this is all just the information flow, then.
Yeah. How can you make a separation between anything that is within the field? It doesn't make any sense, you know. Yeah, everything is.
And, you know, it's funny, we have the audacity to think that we're at the top of the totem pole of consciousness. Maybe we are, as far as we know, but probably not.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: Yeah, I think that was probably like the.
One of. One of the key, I guess, points in the switch of my thinking. Because, mind you, I used to be a very hard atheist.
Like, did not believe in anything in which I could not see or prove or you know, logically wrap my head around.
[00:13:37] Speaker A: But me too, by the way.
[00:13:42] Speaker B: But I think one of the turning points in my thinking was understanding that everything that we know through science is still limited to our subjective interpretation of the world around us. Right. And yes, we have these tools and mechanisms through which we can test our different hypotheses.
But the output of. Well, firstly, the making of those tools, they are made so that we can understand them. Right. And then the output that they give us are still subject to interpretation.
And I think quantum. The whole issue within quantum mechanics and not being able to rectify it with general relativity and all of this is a really good example of that. And because people. People can see the data, but they're coming up with all of these different interpretations of it. Right.
And so, you know, all of our science is.
And this is not me dissing science. I want to, you know, this is my passion. It's what I want to do.
But we also have to have a little bit of humility when it comes to the interpretations that we are pulling out of it.
Because, A, as you said, who are we to think that we are at the top of the totem pole?
And B, when we think that way, we disconnect ourselves from the world around us, which on a spiritual or psychological level is bad for you. Right.
Losing touch with the world around you, whether that be, you know, psychosis or depression. Like, there are so many examples of the impacts that this disconnects between people and other people, other communities, other animals. The nature of.
There's an overwhelming amount of research coming out about how detrimental that is for people's health. And so I think that there really does need to be this convergence, not just within the scientific community, but also. And again, there's going to be people who do not like the fact that I'm saying this, but also amongst, you know, the spiritual community. Because I do kind of think that science and spirituality are two sides to the same coin. I don't think that they are working in opposition.
A lot of people disagree with me there, but I will stand on that take.
I think that science gives us a clearer understanding of the mechanism behind spirituality, if that makes sense.
[00:16:26] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good way to put it.
I like that a lot.
It, like, demystifies it in some way.
[00:16:33] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
But it's still. I still feel as though it's both components are important because, you know, it's. It's great to know about.
To know a lot about the world around you, but that's useless if it doesn't help you operate in that world. Right.
And one of the things I kind of felt when I was, I guess, when my worldview began to shift was that I though I was, you know, an atheist and I was pretty hard nihilist, too, it was extremely detrimental to, like, just my general experience of life, because while I could understand and explain all of these complex or not all of these, but many complex phenomena, it was like, okay, but that doesn't lead me to a particularly joyful or holistic interpretation of the world. You know, to see things very black and white and to lack nuance in certain situations. And, yeah, I mean, as I said before, it can be extremely detrimental to mental health, which is why I do think. And even in psychology, there is an agreement that, you know, for people, especially depending on their cultural backgrounds, spirituality is an important component of mental health healing.
[00:18:16] Speaker A: Mm.
[00:18:17] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:18:19] Speaker A: Why do you think we need that essence of spirituality?
[00:18:22] Speaker B: I think it's because people need to feel deeply connected.
In order to feel safe and to be able to propagate. I'm not sure if that's quite the right word, but compassion in the world, you know, to have compassion and empathy for others, without that connection, you lose that because you are constantly within this chronic state of fear.
And I think that spirituality can remedy that because it reminds you that you are one piece, an important piece of something much larger, you know?
[00:19:17] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:19:19] Speaker B: And that though you may feel small, your impact will have a ripple effect.
And, you know, whether we. I'm going to use this as a parallel.
But when we see how particles interact. Right.
We notice that those interactions make everything. Right. Those interactions literally form the fabric of reality.
And so why would we as human beings operate any differently?
[00:19:52] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah. So without that essence of spirituality, we operate, or at least we convince ourselves that we operate differently.
[00:20:02] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:20:02] Speaker A: Is us. And then there's the world, there's us, and then there's the universe. But spirituality draws that connection into it all.
[00:20:08] Speaker B: Exactly, exactly. That's exactly how I think about it. And I also think that, you know, the ego is a big component of this as well. It's something that we talk a lot about in psychology, but it's also a huge part of spirituality. Right. And not even just spirituality. You look at, you know, it's discussed in all religions.
And again, this is not a dis. Towards science.
Love science. I'm a science nerd.
But I do think that, like anything a lot, there is a lot of ego within the scientific community because you just. You see people unwilling to listen to each other. You Know this. Us versus, like, me versus you, us versus them. And it's, it's everywhere. It's so prevalent today. And having a more non dualistic view of the world and of others and of the self helps to kind of, I guess, temper the ego or keep it in check.
Which is again why spirituality, I think is so important here.
Because as soon as we allow ourselves to blur the boundaries between us and everything around us, we realize that everything is connected.
Everything is connected.
[00:21:46] Speaker A: Mm.
Yeah. Most importantly you and the other people that you're bickering with. Yeah.
But let me ask you this one. What do you mean by spirituality? Because that is a big term and there's many different forms of spirituality. Some better than others, I would say. So what does that mean to you?
[00:22:04] Speaker B: I think I kind of do use that as a blanket term to describe.
The more, I guess, the less.
Sorry, I will be speaking in science terms because it's just what I'm like familiar with.
[00:22:22] Speaker A: It's okay.
[00:22:23] Speaker B: But the less scientific component of idealism, you know, so definitely I, I view spirituality as kind.
[00:22:36] Speaker A: Of.
[00:22:36] Speaker B: Oh, actually give me a moment to think on this.
[00:22:41] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:22:47] Speaker B: I think as a blanket term, it can be used to describe the view of consciousness as separate to the physical form.
To me personally, I view spirituality as honestly just being in alignment with your true self and the world around you, whatever that may look like. I think that that's a much broader way of looking at it. But you know, I don't necessarily think that. Although I believe in, you know, this non dualistic perspective, I don't think spirituality necessarily has to be, You know, just that I think that even people with a more materialistic worldview, you know, assuming that consciousness is just a byproduct of the brain and it just emerges from these different neural pathways communicating to each other. Even if you have that view, you can still be spiritual.
So long as you kind of have this dissolution of the ego to an extent.
[00:24:06] Speaker A: Right.
[00:24:06] Speaker B: So long as you are willing to listen to others, move through the world with compassion and grace and allow for both the subjective experiences of others, but also to allow for that within yourself and understand that you are the awareness behind the things that you feel and see and do and whatnot on a day to day basis and are not those things in themselves, does that make sense? So like if, yeah, Amen says like, I am angry as opposed to I am feeling angry, you know, like you are not angry, you are a person experiencing that emotion. I think that people with this world view, even whether or not they believe in, you know, a higher being or consciousness as a unified field or whatever, they can still be spiritual people.
And I think this is why a lot of people in the scientific community are very comfortable with adopting Buddhism, because really, it operates more as a philosophy. You know, whether or not you believe in the aspect of, you know, enlightenment or, you know, reincarnation or consciousness as a higher field, you can still believe in the principles that are instilled within you through following that philosophy. And by way of that, still be a spiritual person, even if you don't believe in the other aspects. Does that.
Yeah, that would be.
[00:25:42] Speaker A: I think it's a good answer. And Eastern philosophy is really a science, when you break it down. Buddhism and yoga, it is a science. It's a science of the self because it's just trial and error. You run experiments on yourself.
[00:25:57] Speaker B: I think that also brings up another thing that I've been thinking about a lot is how, like, Western science has kind of not even just dominated the globe, but also it negates other ways of knowing. That's something that I have an issue with, particularly because I live in New Zealand and I am Mori, so, like the indigenous population of New Zealand.
And there is definitely a lot more recognition of Maturanga Maori, which is like our ancestral wisdom and knowledge, which is great. I think it's fascinating.
I think it's wonderful that we get to learn about these things even at university. You know, like, they teach you in university about Kaupapa Maori, which is, like, how you can integrate this kind of wisdom and knowledge into practice if you have, you know, clinical. Clinical patients that you need to treat and things like that. And there is very much like a framework in place, not just for helping people, but also for learning this material.
So I definitely think that there is, you know, more recognition to that now, but I don't really see that in other places in the world.
And I think that that's quite sad because, honestly, I could go on a whole separate little rampage on the parallels between Te Al Maori, or the Maori worldview and quantum physics. Like, there.
There is a lot of merit to these ways of understanding. Right. But they've been discredited for centuries because they don't follow these traditional bounds of Western science.
And though they're getting more recognition now, at least here, again, it's not happening everywhere. And for the most part, it is still being shunned by Western science.
[00:28:08] Speaker A: So, yeah, yeah, well, I think we're moving into different times. It's an integration of the past. Terence McKenna says it's the archaic revival.
[00:28:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:28:21] Speaker A: And I think it's a integration of the past with our present paradigm.
[00:28:27] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think too, it was interesting. I was actually. Have you heard the analogy of the blind men and the elephant?
[00:28:35] Speaker A: Yeah, but can you tell it for us?
[00:28:37] Speaker B: Yeah. So basically imagine four blind monks, right?
They are all standing around an elephant holding different parts of the elephant. One is holding the tail, one is holding a leg, one is holding the trunk, one is holding an ear. And they're all describing what the thing that they are touching is right now. Because they're all blind and because they're all only getting this one perspective of what the animal is, they're all going to tell you different things.
I think that this is very much what is happening in fields like philosophy, psychology, biology, physics and neurobiology as well. I think I already said psychology. But this is what I believe is happening in the scientific community and the spiritual communities when it comes to interpreting this issue of consciousness. Everybody's looking at it from a different perspective. Everybody's describing what they're seeing from their perspective and then they're arguing about it, you know, as opposed to being like, well, maybe we're all talking about the same thing here. Let's all put our brains together and come up with a holistic framework that allows for this thing, this one thing, to combine all of these different perspectives. Because I don't necessarily think any one of them is wrong, you know, I think they just are not looking at it all together.
And that is where we start to butt heads on, you know, these really micro differences. Like if you look at quantum information theory and integrated information theory. I know I keep bringing it up, but I really do find it so fascinating.
They're really like. They really are describing the same thing, or at least I believe so I guess we'll figure out in the next 50 years or so. But yeah, so I just think that there definitely needs to be this more comprehensive and holistic understanding of the world that we are not currently getting because of things like the ego, you know, and the inability to have these discussions and be open minded and still be curious and entertain a thought without accepting it. I'm pretty sure there's a quote by Aristotle that says that that is the mark of an intelligent mind or something like that.
Um, because, yeah, you can have these discussions and, you know, be open to having these discussions without necessarily accepting any of these beliefs. You still learn.
And personally, I think that, well, I believe that this is all really just a cosmic conscious, like, playground for consciousness. Right. And that Our only real purpose is to learn through subjective experience.
So, yeah, I think if you were to draw that all back to the. Why.
Why do I think we have consciousness? It really is just for that reason.
But we're failing at it.
We're not doing so well at it.
Maybe not failing.
I definitely have hope.
[00:31:48] Speaker A: Yeah, I know what you're saying though. It could be.
Could be a lot better, that's for sure.
And I really think that's the aspects that you described already of spirituality is being able to see that the truth is one and the wise call it by many names.
Right.
And understanding that from your own point of view, not really taking anybody else's word for it, really taking that in. I think first of all, that's how you are able to understand the mandala of truth. You know, how they're all different pieces of the pie of truth is you have to understand that yourself, like really feel that at an experiential level to feel this unified essence, this one consciousness. And then you can take that into any field, whether it's psychology, biology, any ology that there is. You can take that one essence into it and attempt at least to be able to see that unified field. That's what I do at least when I come on here with people, I.
I try to see how they see it. But from my sense of seeing the one. You know what I'm getting at? Yeah, yeah. I think that's the balancing act.
It's kind of like a balancing act between mind and I was gonna say higher mind. I don't know if it's higher mind. Could say that, but just a different view of looking at things, the conscious perspective, you know, and.
Yeah, that's what's needed. That's why we're missing the mark, is because we're too much in the mind, the monkey mind.
[00:33:22] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:33:22] Speaker A: But there's a higher intelligence within us.
[00:33:25] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.
I think, or I believe rather there's something that we can tap into.
Not sure if that's quite the right way to put it, but there is definitely something we can tap into when we are in alignment like that.
Some things that perhaps I would not be able to explain logically, but it's kind of just a knowing.
[00:34:00] Speaker A: Yep.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: And I think I want to make the distinction between understanding and knowing because I think that those two things are quite different. I think that you can understand something from a logical perspective. Right. Top down, understand how a process works.
But knowing is.
It's more a feeling, you know, it is this internal alignment. I can't really describe it any better, but when I feel like I know something, it's like full alignment of like everything, right. Like, I can understand it, but I can also feel it. And I guess that alludes to this idea of qualia or, you know, subjective experience or what it feels like to be something, because it's again, one thing to understand it, it's another thing to embody it. Right.
And so I think that when you have this kind of internal knowing, there definitely is something that you can tap into, whether some people call this source or, you know, God or the universe or whatever you want to call it. Right.
But it requires you to be able to open up your perspective and consider things that you maybe haven't in the past. And that was probably the hardest bit for me, to be honest, is like being a very logical minded person and really struggling with anything that I couldn't understand. I mean, I think that's why I took the scientific route and which ended up leading me here anyways.
But I have always had trouble entrusting in that in which I could not see. But I realized that when I started trusting myself in other domains of my life. Right.
It kind of began to translate into trusting what I can feel.
And for me that looks like a deep sense of interconnection with everything and everyone.
[00:36:15] Speaker A: And intuition.
[00:36:16] Speaker B: And intuition, yeah. Like I remember.
Well, there's been lots of different moments that have kind of been.
I wouldn't necessarily like to call it a spiritual awakening, but I guess you could.
But it really only happened like this year and it was kind of as I was getting to the end of my degree and I had put a lot of these pieces together in my head and formulated a lot of these hypothesis hypotheses. And to be honest, like, I didn't even, I didn't even know if I could be right. You know, these were just like I was, I was just putting together these pieces that made sense in my mind, but I was like, you know, that's just my mind. And then I started talking to people about it and I started talking to my professors about it and I started, you know, getting in touch with people at different universities about it. And there, there, there's a lot of consensus around a lot of these things. You know, people are a bit more quiet about it because it's not yet accepted within the scientific community. But like people, this discussion is being had by many and.
But I guess what really kind of made me realize this was I was just sitting outside of uni one day. It was my one of my last days before I finished. And there have been like a lot of events, a lot throughout my life that had kind of led me to this point, mind you. I had taken no drugs, I was completely sober, But I had what would be considered an ego dissolution experience, right.
Literally just sitting outside, whereby it suddenly hit me that this separation between myself, the seat I am sitting on, the tree behind me, the person in front of me is all perceived.
It's all perceived.
Right?
And in reality, there is a base layer of information, as they would call it in quantum mechanics, I guess that makes up all of this.
And everything layered on top of that is really just.
I mean, I'm. I don't want to get flamed for saying this, but like, it's really just semantics, you know, like, it really is. It's just different ways of describing the ways in which these particles come together to form this and which then comes together to form this. You know, it's. It's just different ways of describing it. But at the end of the day, everything is one thing.
Everything is one thing. And I was sat there and I literally just started crying because I was like, oh my God. Like, it felt like I couldn't understand how I had ever seen things differently, you know?
And that was when it kind of clicked for me that, oh, no, like there's. There's something to this, because this is the knowing, you know, like, this is. It's not just based in a feeling because obviously I built up this like, kind of scientific hypothesis around it, but more deeply than that, that's just phenomena, you know, this is the phenomena and powerful. Yeah, crazy stuff. And what I found really interesting about it too is that a lot of people, like, you know, I think that ego dissolution is something that people experience on psychedelics a lot. Right.
And people talk about it with psychedelics a lot.
And I'm also very fascinated in researching that. My. One of my professors that I run a lot of my work past and talk to a lot, he is leading research in psychedelics and I was helping him with that project at one point in time. But what I found really interesting about that experience is that it happened dead set, sober.
[00:40:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:30] Speaker B: Like there was no, you know, and so.
And it also happened after a very, you know, maybe seven months of me just doing deep dive research into the phenomena of consciousness and spirituality and looking at eastern philosophies and, you know, like reading different papers and studies, but also different books. Like, it came after all of that and it was like building up that understanding so that I could reach that place of knowing, you know, But I would have never, like in the past trusted myself or trust. I would have thought that I was going crazy, you know, as opposed to being like, no, this is, this is a legitimate experience.
And that qualia of that experience cannot be deduced. It's irreducible.
And we're trying our very best, and we can try our very best, but honestly, like, I wouldn't be surprised if there comes a point where we. It is just all, you know, not even just consciousness, but the integrity of the universe is just unintelligible to us. That would make sense because we are still primates, you know, like, we like to have this overinflated view of our own importance and our own intelligence and again, ego feeding into this disconnect and all of that. But on the positive side, I do think that a lot of people are making shifts. There seems to be a bit of a shift in the collective consciousness. And I am quite happy about that. I'm very happy about that.
[00:42:19] Speaker A: Me too.
Yeah. Well, the beauty of it all is that we'll never figure it out, Right?
[00:42:25] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:26] Speaker A: The grand mystery, that's, that's the good news.
[00:42:32] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:42:33] Speaker A: And doesn't mean we give up striving to figure out certain aspects of life, but really we're never going to figure it out. You know, we're just primates, as you said.
But there's something magical about the mystery. To me.
I wouldn't want to figure it out if I could just snap my fingers right now and have all the answers. It's no fun.
[00:42:53] Speaker B: Fun in that.
[00:42:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
I don't know. That's not why we're here. I don't think that's why we're alive. You know, we're supposed to not know at all. We're supposed to, like, there's something so sanctified and divine about being a dumb primate.
Well, we're dumb and intelligent at the same time. That's what's funny about the human condition is we're actually really, really intelligent. You know, we built the, the nuclear weapons in the, the collider. What's that called? The Hadron. The Hadron Collider. Things of that nature that just defies physics. And then at the other side of our intelligence, we wage war with that kind of technology and do dumb things. And, you know, we, we just, we're this unique being of seemingly hyper intelligence, but also hyper stupidity at the same time. It's kind of funny. Yeah. It's cosmic joke in there.
[00:43:45] Speaker B: Oh, yeah.
[00:43:45] Speaker A: But yeah, point of my story is. Yeah, I revere the mystery of it all.
[00:43:50] Speaker B: Yeah. S. Do I. I think it would be incredibly boring if we knew everything and then I'd have nothing to do. Like, I want to be my. I. I want to be a researcher. I want to learn these things.
[00:44:02] Speaker A: And I think you said in the beginning that's kind of the point of life, right? Is learning. Right. Of this experience. We're learning and growing.
[00:44:09] Speaker B: I think so. And when I say the term learning, I don't just mean necessarily like, I. I think there's learning in everything. I think there's learning in every day. You know, whether people choose to take that on or not is on them. But there is absolutely things that happen every single day that give us the opportunity to learn. And.
But that has to be recognized, you know, and that was actually something that I had to learn kind of the hard way.
After going through a number of kind of unfortunate events, I eventually got to the point where I realized, okay, well, some of these were out of my control.
Some of these were entirely preventable had I learned the time before, you know, and when you start viewing all of your situations, good and bad, as a learning experience, life gets a whole lot better for you, you know, because you're no longer, I guess, necessarily attaching to any one outcome. You're entering every situation with curiosity and an attempt to learn, you know?
[00:45:20] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:45:22] Speaker B: And it's funny, I get a lot of people because I also talk quite a lot about just, like, awareness and how to kind of deal with emotions and things in a productive manner.
And one of the things that people say in my comment sections a lot is like, oh, you know, you're so wise for your years. But honestly, I think it's just like taking in every single experience as a lesson, you know, you learn a lot when you think that way. You learn so much more when you view every single experience that you go through in life as a learning opportunity. You learn fast.
[00:46:12] Speaker A: Yeah, for sure.
And then what are we learning for? Right.
It's like, what are we.
What are we graduating into?
A better experience, I would say, like, we're learning how to actually, truly enjoy.
[00:46:26] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:46:26] Speaker A: Enjoy this seeming futile human condition, our suffering in some way.
I think so. At least that's just me.
If it's not that, then I don't know what we're learning for.
[00:46:43] Speaker B: No, I agree.
I definitely agree.
I think, yeah, if there were one thing I could hope to do, it is to foster curiosity and allow people to be a bit more curious, because I think a lot of the ways in which we are conditioned as we grow up is it kills that curiosity. You know, every time when you were a kid, your teacher or your parents, you asked them a question and they said, don't question me, or.
Because that's just how it is, you know, Every time that happens, people are taught that they cannot question the world around them, that they cannot be curious about the world around them, that this is a fixed structure, you know?
And when we have that mentality, not only can it make the world quite bleak for you, it can also. And also hinder your growth.
It also can make people quite complacent to the way that things are.
And I say that because having been personally one of those people, it really did kind of foster a sense of, like, hopelessness, you know?
[00:48:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:48:12] Speaker B: Because, like, nihilism aside. Right.
If I am just this one tiny speck of nothingness that will be born and then one will one day die and none of it means anything, then what's the point in being curious? What's the point in trying to make change or, you know, like, any. Anything. What's the point of anything?
[00:48:39] Speaker A: Yeah. Nothing. Yeah, I used to feel that way, too. I was. No point in doing anything.
[00:48:44] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:48:45] Speaker A: I guess you could argue there still is no point. But it's like, what do you do with that? No point.
[00:48:50] Speaker B: Right.
[00:48:50] Speaker A: Right. You either carpe diem, tackle the day and make this a fun, hopefully enjoyable experience that is maybe pointless, or you just take that nihilism and sit in your bed all day and eat Cheetos and do nothing. Because, I mean, you can come to a point of. Through meditation and inquiry, of seeing the emptiness of it all. Sanyatta. Right. To see that there is no point, you could say. But you kind of understand along the way that we make the point. You're creating the point. You're creating meaning. I think really that's what comes from spirituality, is meaning. And science doesn't really have meaning in there. You know, they. They got a lot of knowledge, they got a lot of information, but is there meaning that you can take from it? Spirituality endows meaning in one's life in a seemingly meaningless universe.
[00:49:40] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And it draws back to that whole idea of, like, the difference between understanding and knowing. I also think that, you know, with spirituality and science, I. My personal view is that science is the how spirit. Spirituality is the why, you know?
[00:49:55] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that.
[00:49:57] Speaker B: So science gives us, as I said before, kind of the mechanisms behind why things operate the way that they do. And I think.
I don't Know, I think that the both of them are kind of a bit.
Well, I'd say, okay, scientists. A lot of scientists would disagree with me on this because they'd say, no, science is still valid without any form of religion. And I do. Like, I. I'm not saying that that's not true, but I do think that they need each other in a way, you know, because science without meaning is nothing. Like, doesn't contribute anything meaningful to the lives of people. Right.
And then spirituality without grounding can sometimes lead to things like psychosis.
And I guess walking that line can be really difficult.
But where I'd.
The only point at which I'd be like, okay, we need to start being a bit cautious here, is when we can no longer integrate the information that we are gaining.
You know, whether that is the scientific information or the spiritual information, the wisdom or whatever you might want to call it.
[00:51:33] Speaker A: Right.
[00:51:34] Speaker B: Both of them can be dangerous where science cannot be integrated meaningfully into the lives of people. Like, let's say, hypothetically speaking, we have a.
Well, actually, I can give a legitimate example.
The.
Oh, actually, sorry, I'm gonna save that one.
But when.
I don't want to be speaking out of turn, I'm not getting my facts right. But when we have, like, say, spiritual wisdom or knowledge that is unable. That we cannot integrate, that can lead into things like psychosis because people are no longer grounded, you know? Yeah, yeah.
And on the flip side, when we have science that actively promotes this nihilistic worldview, it can lead to things like depression, you know, and so I think, you know, it's a. It's a tricky. It's a tricky one to gauge. And I'm not. That's why I don't want to, like, be. I want to be quite neutral between the two.
But I do think they work in tandem when you find a balance.
[00:53:00] Speaker A: I agree.
And I think that is the place of the Westerner that wants to tread the line between psychosis and nihilism is having that.
Having that understanding that spirituality and science are really the same thing. They're just different ways to look at it. And if you can balance that in your own way, in your own perspective, really, in your own way of balancing, then, yeah, you become superhuman. Honestly, there is, like, the superhuman essence to how one embodies that. Embodies that dual understanding.
I don't know, maybe that's just me, but I feel the same way as you because I also come from a science background. I was atheist, and then I got into Eastern philosophy and spirituality of the east and also the west, and it almost amplifies it. Like, when you can come from, I like to say atheists are halfway there. So if you can come from that point of really nothing and then understand spirituality from, from giving up this false spirituality. Right, the false, the dogma, if you can bridge the gap with an actual integrated view of spirituality.
There's this like hyper intelligence that. I said, there's this hyper wisdom that your body is endowed with that I'm not only speaking for myself, but I sense in others as well. I sense that from you, Jazz.
It's a balance between the mind and the heart, I think. And maybe that's an oversimplification, but that's what I feel. It's like there's two different intelligences in us. There's the logic and then there's the experiential feeling that the body holds, the subtle feeling that the heart holds. And if you can dance that dance, life becomes very interesting.
[00:54:55] Speaker B: Yeah, I'd so agree. And you know, I like, I very much believe in things like manifestation. I believe in, you know, the, I mean, that is something that goes back so far. It's a, it's a, I feel like manifestation has now been used as like a tick tock, new age term, you know.
[00:55:14] Speaker A: Oh, yeah.
[00:55:14] Speaker B: But like, it goes prayer, visualization, you know, meditation, all of these things are like, literally, it's the same thing. New word.
[00:55:24] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:55:25] Speaker B: But, you know, when I had that experience that I described of like, ego dissolution, everything after that was, it was, I, I can't even. It was like every, I, I suddenly was receiving everything I'd ever wanted, everything I'd ever wanted, and like, to literally the most insane degrees. And I, I can't explain it scientifically, but I, I, it's annoying, you know, I know that that's what it was, and I know that I had kind of tapped into something because, like, it's honestly scary how, how fast, but then also how insanely precise, you know, because I, I would like, write down exactly what I wanted, exactly all of the descriptions and like, I, you know, visualize these things happening.
And it was like within the span of three months, I ticked off everything on that list and I was like, okay, so this is just like further for me, further confirmation, you know, and like, I run these things like an experiment. I'm like, okay, this is my hypothesis.
If and only if the results meet these conditions will I agree with the hypothesis. And I, like, I, at this point, can't say no, you know, and while I might not be Able to explain that scientifically? I've tried. I mean, there is a totally an explanation for manifestation from a neuropsychological perspective. When you look at, like the reticular activating system and how our beliefs inform our actions and all of those things, like, there is a science to it, but there is also a step beyond that that I feel you can take and then kind of tap into something wider that just accelerates that whole process for you.
But a large part of that, at least from my experience, has to come from this ego dissolution. Because as long as you view yourself as separate from not only the world and everyone around you, but also from the version of you that I guess has the things that you want. And, you know, if. I mean, I might be making an. A bit of a reach here, but if we think about how 4D space time works, right? And the fact that. Or I guess the theory that past, present and future all coexist in one space. Right.
If we draw a parallel there. I'm not saying that this is the same thing, just saying that they're paralleled.
Well, it kind of is the same thing, you know, like they're.
They're viewing yourself as separate to not only the present moment, but all future and past moments.
You realize that you can kind of just skip, you know, like you. The there. There is a you existing that.
I feel like I sound like all of those manifestation gurus on Tick Tock, but I really do believe, kind of do.
[00:58:40] Speaker A: But it's okay. Yeah, no, it's real. It's real.
[00:58:43] Speaker B: There is a version of you that already has or, you know, I don't know. I've always had this very clear vision of what it was that I wanted for my future.
And it was, you know, I guess, what I would call a knowing. You know, like this internal state of knowing. And I was like, this is what I want. This is where I want to be. I don't know how I'm gonna get there. I just know what's gonna happen, you know?
And to me, I feel like, you know, I can feel all past versions of me and all future versions of me coexisting in one space. Do I understand the science behind that? No. Could I be entirely wrong? Maybe. But that is my internal kind of feeling, which is, I guess, its own way of knowing. Right.
And it felt like when I had this ego dissolution experience, it also allowed me to connect to those versions and I guess just speed up the process on everything.
[00:59:52] Speaker A: Yep, yep. That's the magic right there. That's the Quantum magic right there.
[00:59:57] Speaker B: Yeah.
I mean, like one of the big things that I've had on my to do list since I was little and I honestly didn't think that it would happen the same. Like, I was like, I put it on my I want to do this with my life list, but I was like, this will happen when I'm like, you know, 40 or something. One of the things was being able to do research on into consciousness.
And then after maybe three weeks after this experience I had, you know, kind of started talking about this stuff on social media. And I had somebody reach out to me and say, hey, somebody from Cornell University had reached out to me and said, hey, we're actually looking into this right now.
Would you like to join our research project? And I was like, yes, yes, I do.
One of the maybe 10 things on this list that all happened within the span of three months. So I really like, for me personally, I think that there's. That is, at least for me, irrefutable evidence that there is something higher that we can tap into.
[01:01:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:01:08] Speaker B: But again, subjective, you know, I don't want to be making claims for everybody. That's just my experience.
But I feel like you would, you would agree with that as well.
[01:01:17] Speaker A: Oh, for sure. And it's not just our experience. Many others feel that. Yeah, it does sound a little woo woo. It sounds a little out there. But until you actually run the experiment yourself.
Yeah, it doesn't make any sense until it actually happens to you. Yeah, it will seem like fairy tales. But I would recommend to anyone listening, try it out. You have a literal list, right? You said write it down. Write down what you truly desire, what your heart desires, and see if that comes into fruition. And there are techniques for sure to go about it in terms of visualization and things of that nature. But just sit with that. And actually sit with it being more than just a possibility, it being a reality. That's the essence of it. And maybe, just maybe, that magic will work its way into your life.
You gotta run the experiments.
[01:02:07] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely.
[01:02:09] Speaker A: Yeah.
Mm. I mean, just think about it from this point of view. Once your ego dissolves, this is the most logical way that I can try to explain it. Once you do feel at one with everything, how could you possibly be separate from that version of yourself? How could you be separate from your desires?
Right. How could you be. There is no such thing as past and future.
Right. The past and future are now in some way, and that is trippy. But that is really, that's the, that's the Inner knowing that goes beyond logic. It goes beyond, like, cause and effect in some way. It goes beyond.
It goes beyond linear time.
Somehow you can feel.
It's almost like you feel your whole life all at once. I know that sounds so strange.
[01:02:55] Speaker B: No, no, I know exactly. I know exactly what you're talking about.
[01:02:58] Speaker A: Yeah, right. You feel the timeline in some way. And that once you feel that timeline, things become quantum and you start to be able to edit the timeline, it seems just by seeing it differently. Right. That's the observer effect. So if you see it differently, you can see different things come into fruition. And that's the magic. It's like we're creating this on the go. That's what I get from this whole thing is we're creating this entire experiment of your life as we go. And the more you resonate with that creator aspect, that you're creating it quantumly on the go, the better creation it can be.
[01:03:38] Speaker B: Totally.
[01:03:38] Speaker A: That's what I'm coming to find.
[01:03:40] Speaker B: I. I agree.
[01:03:42] Speaker A: Yeah.
That's the magic. That is very hard to put into a scientific or mathematical proof.
But if you know, you know.
[01:03:52] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think too, like, in many ways we are kind of taught, you know, from childhood to doubt ourselves and to not trust ourselves or our intuitions or our feelings about things. And I think that it's because if everyone were to wake up to this. This idea that we are really the creators of all this. Right.
People would begin to wake up to their own inherent power. And that would not be good for things as they operate currently.
But I also think that that's why it's so important and a large part of why I do the work that I do. I'm sure it's similar for you because.
[01:04:41] Speaker A: These.
[01:04:42] Speaker B: We have come to discredit our own subjective experience in favor of objectivity that really doesn't exist. You know, like there. There really is no such thing.
And again, I don't want to be cooked for saying this, but there really is no such thing as objectivity. Everything is subjective. Everything.
[01:05:06] Speaker A: Yeah.
[01:05:06] Speaker B: You know, even if we start looking.
[01:05:08] Speaker A: At, like, ultimate objectivity.
[01:05:10] Speaker B: Yeah. Like everything is subjective. And so though we have been taught to distrust our subjective experience, really isn't that the only thing we can trust?
And I guess that kind of goes to that whole there's a philosophy. I'm trying to remember solopsism that I'm not sure.
I think. Yeah, I think so.
Whereby, like, it kind of asked this question about consciousness.
Isn't the only thing that I can prove that I am conscious, you know, is that not the only thing that I can prove that I am a conscious being having this experience? I can't prove that anybody else is conscious. I can't prove, like, that anything else exists but my own consciousness at the end of the day, you know?
And so when.
When we are taught to distrust our subjective experience, when really we live in a subjective world, like, it causes a lot of problems and people are unable to see their own inherent power, but we have it.
We have it. And. Yep, we have this ability to create and to explore and to learn, and.
And that is a gift, and we need to be using it in the right ways.
[01:06:37] Speaker A: Amen.
You're very well spoken, Jazz.
[01:06:40] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:06:44] Speaker A: I think that's a good note to wrap this up at.
[01:06:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[01:06:48] Speaker A: I don't have anything else to say, but do you have anything else you want to say?
[01:06:53] Speaker B: Not really. Thanks for listening.
[01:06:57] Speaker A: Yeah. This was awesome. Yeah, this was great.
Powerful words.
Keep up the good work, Jaz.
[01:07:05] Speaker B: Thank you. And you, too. I'm loving, loving, loving watching your stuff.
[01:07:10] Speaker A: I'm loving watching your stuff. And now our stuff has combined.
[01:07:14] Speaker B: Yes.
[01:07:17] Speaker A: Well, yeah, keep up the good work. I wish you all the best, and maybe we can tap in again in the future.
[01:07:22] Speaker B: Yeah, totally.
[01:07:23] Speaker A: Until then, you, too.
Keep on keeping on. Peace and love, Jazz.
[01:07:27] Speaker B: Peace and love.
[01:07:28] Speaker A: Bye, everybody.
