Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Tom Doss, thank you for joining me today.
[00:00:03] Speaker B: Thank you, Gary. Thank you for having me.
Great to be here.
[00:00:08] Speaker A: Great to have you.
So, yeah, getting this thing started, would you be able to give us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Exactly.
[00:00:16] Speaker B: Yeah, sure. Well, where to start? I'm never good at telling my own story, probably because I don't think about it too much.
[00:00:26] Speaker A: Probably better off.
Sorry, you're probably better off.
[00:00:31] Speaker B: Maybe.
Maybe.
To cut a long story short and happy to go into it more if you want me to.
I'm basically a devotee of Bhagavan Ramana Shri Maharishi, and I love to share his teachings and share devotional meetings towards him.
That's a very, very brief summary of what I do, who I am.
[00:01:03] Speaker A: Oh, that's awesome.
Straight to the point.
[00:01:09] Speaker B: Happy to answer other questions if you want to ask anything. But, you know, my main love is for Bhagavan Ramana.
[00:01:17] Speaker A: Oh, let's dive into that.
What is it about Ramana Maharshi that appeals to you?
[00:01:23] Speaker B: I can't put it in words because actually, when I first came across him, I didn't find anything really that appealing about him. Either his story or his teachings, you know, or his name or his form. I didn't find any of it really appealing.
And I didn't even like his teachings. But a few years later, after, as I said, when I first came into contact with him, I kind of rejected him and his teachings.
And sometime later, I came into contact with him again, and I felt this.
Love and devotion surge up from within me. I was going to say it was overwhelming because in a way, it was overwhelming, but it wasn't overwhelming in the sense that it didn't.
You know, it kind of knocked me off my feet, and it didn't. It was completely lucid, it was completely sober, and it was intoxicating. It's hard to explain.
Yeah, it wasn't overwhelming any negative way.
And it wasn't really.
I mean, it was totally positive, but I don't know how to put it into words.
And I started feeling a deep connection with him in my life that started off as a seed and grew and grew and grew.
And at this point, when I first started to feel this for him, I still didn't really like his teachings that much, you know?
And over time, I grew to like his teachings, too.
But he kind of infected my heart and took me over slowly. Slowly.
In retrospect,
[00:03:25] Speaker A: would you say there was some sort of transmission?
[00:03:32] Speaker B: It was more like.
It was more like transformation or being Swallowed whole being. Swallowed being consumed than transmission. It didn't feel so much like transmission. It felt like he entered into me and.
And took me over and infected me.
Now, all of those words can sound quite negative, but it wasn't. It didn't feel negative at all. It felt very simple and right.
And right. It felt very right.
Didn't feel negative at all. Did not. There was no sort of fear or anything.
And there wasn't even a sense of losing myself.
It was more like falling into him, more like him revealing himself as I.
[00:04:40] Speaker A: Interesting.
[00:04:43] Speaker B: That's. To put it into words. I wouldn't have. I wouldn't necessarily have said that.
You know, those words are quite traditional sounding words, but I wouldn't necessarily have said it like that. But I'm just trying to put it into words now.
[00:04:57] Speaker A: Yeah, trying to describe the ineffable. The ineffable love of the guru.
[00:05:04] Speaker B: Have you experienced anything like that yourself, Karen?
[00:05:10] Speaker A: I'm trying to think not toward any one figure. I have figures that I do love and admire and feel transformed just by their words, but nothing like a rapture, you know, nothing like a grand transformation.
Like off the top of my head, Ram Dass appeals to me. Neem Karoli Baba, Jesus reading the New Testament, Ramana Maharshi as well.
I don't know many others, so I know you're. I know what you're saying. I know you're pointing to like the power of the word or not even the word, just the, the presence, the. The gaze in their eyes that comes across that transforms one.
And yeah, you can't describe it. It's just like a.
It's just like a key that unlocks something within oneself.
And as you said, you almost fall into them. You fall into.
You become them and they become you. It's magic, man.
[00:06:15] Speaker B: It's magic. That's what I think, right?
[00:06:18] Speaker A: That's the magic of these sages, these beings that came before us is we don't even have to know them in person.
Somehow, some way through time and space, their presence, their just their dharma shines through.
And I'm eternally grateful for that. That we have that, that we have Ramana to reference, you know, in our hearts, not only on the screen, but truly in our hearts and in our being.
It's a miracle.
Hallelujah to the sages.
[00:06:54] Speaker B: Hallelujah.
Amen.
Definitely.
I love what you said.
[00:07:00] Speaker A: Thank you, man.
[00:07:01] Speaker B: It really resonates strongly with me.
That's really beautiful what you said. Really beautiful. Thank you.
[00:07:15] Speaker A: I mean, I truly mean it. The Fact that we have the ability to tap into the Dharma and these people that are beyond people in my eyes, in my opinion, even though we see them as people, the fact that we can tap into them and they can tap into us, and we get that. We get that thing, that transmission or that transformation, it's.
It truly is a miracle because we could have easily been born in a time without the Internet, which maybe we were in past lifetimes. Who knows? That's a whole. That's a whole tangent. I don't want to go down that route. But it's just saying, you know, this lifetime is very special because of the technology that we have to be able to.
To be able to reference material that comes from the sages and know that they existed, to just simply. To just simply know that they had that incarnation.
And, yeah, it's not to be taken for granted because many millions, if not billions of people have lived without the Dharma just because of the circumstances that they were born in the past. And even now in modern times, a lot of people don't even know of Ramana Maharshi.
So the fact that we know of these sages, we can know of these sages in that they do enter our lives seemingly by magic, by some kind of miracle, to me, I am eternally grateful for that.
Just want to express that I agree.
[00:08:42] Speaker B: I totally agree. But I do disagree with as well.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: Please tell. How do you disagree?
[00:08:48] Speaker B: Well, I agree with you first.
[00:08:50] Speaker A: All right.
[00:08:50] Speaker B: I agree with everything you said. It's so great to have all these resources and information for those of us who do have that, as he rightly said, not. Not all of us now have that.
So I don't disagree with you in that sense, but maybe it's more of an addition, which is that irrespective of where or when we are born,
[00:09:16] Speaker A: guru
[00:09:17] Speaker B: or teacher is always accessible to us.
So it seems that we have more access to teachings now. And on the face of it, we do. We have access to way more scripture, to teachings, to history, to knowledge, to information in all sorts of domains, including the spiritual.
But if you desire liberation, a teacher comes. You could be in the middle of the desert, you know, whether that's Antarctica or the Sahara or wherever. You know, you could be in the middle of nowhere. You could be in a time where there's no Internet, no digital technology whatsoever. And if you desire liberation, somehow it will come.
The teacher, the teaching will come. How?
I don't know. But it's, as you say, it's magic. So just as you said, the power of the guru, the power of the teacher transcends time, space, geography, culture, all these things. I totally believe that.
I totally agree. In the same way, doesn't matter where we are or when we are or who we are, if the desire is there, the teacher is always there for us. And the teacher will materialize in a form that is right for us if that is right for us.
[00:10:45] Speaker A: When the student is ready, the teacher appears.
[00:10:48] Speaker B: You said it much nicer than I did. Just there.
Do you see? But then, because relatively speaking, we should be grateful and we can be grateful for the technology, etc.
But actually none of these things are.
Lack of these things is not a barrier, you know?
[00:11:08] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:11:08] Speaker B: And the presence of these things sometimes can seem to be a barrier because obviously there's a flip side of having access to so many different teachings.
There are downsides to that potentially too. We get confused. You know, there's a teacher on every street corner of the Internet, metaphorically.
[00:11:26] Speaker A: That's a good point. I'm glad you said that. Yeah, I guess I was just referencing the actual material, the personified guru. But yeah, the magic of the true, the sad guru is when the student is ready, the teacher appears, no matter the medium. I believe that 100%.
[00:11:46] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:11:49] Speaker A: Now, how would you describe, if we can try to describe a little more, the ineffable, the transformation that took place, you know, could you get into pre Ramana, Tom, and then post Ramanatham?
[00:12:06] Speaker B: Yeah, sure.
It's the end of suffering and it's the realization of fullness, bliss.
In which there is no suffering.
[00:12:23] Speaker A: Pretty simple.
[00:12:25] Speaker B: That's the basic.
That's the basic transformation.
[00:12:32] Speaker A: Now, how so could we get a little deeper into that? Maybe for someone that doesn't know any better. Right. How would you say that there is no more suffering?
What does that mean?
[00:12:50] Speaker B: So.
One way of explaining, one way of explaining it is within each and every one of us is an unlimited fountain or source of happiness.
That is our true nature.
It is like the eternal fountain of happiness.
And when we discover that it's like a flood, the fountain surges forth and issues shower of bliss, happiness.
And that is the unconditional love or happiness or being or fullness that we are.
So when we're not aware of that, then we identify as a body mind in a world.
And we experience our life through the perspective of a body mind in the world.
And we experience the ups and downs of that body mind in the world, what we call life.
You know, if you have something, if you come into contact with something nice, you're Happy.
And if you come into contact with something you don't like so much, then you become unhappy. This kind of thing, and so on and so on.
And we seek things typically that make us happy, and we seek to move away from things that don't make us happy, you know, and so on. And this is we can call ignorance.
None of this is true. Not actually what we are, not actually the truth, but it seems to be true because we seem not to know what we are.
And the gift that Pagawan gave me or revealed to me was the gift of truth, of self knowledge, which is realizing that there is happiness and you are that never wavers, never changes.
And he is that you are he.
So all these different teachers that we can have access to across time, space, or through the Internet and the teachings and through the scriptures, they are just you. It is just you. It is just I.
All those great sages and saints that we all we can tip our hats to, and we can bow to you. Name some that resonated with you and with me too.
It is just I.
It is just self or just you.
When I say just I, I also mean you.
I don't just mean just Tom. Of course it's you that is you. You are that.
[00:16:05] Speaker A: Yeah, Tatvamasi.
[00:16:09] Speaker B: That's Tak Thomas.
So if I may say a little bit more, please.
So the simple way to discover this is through being silent, through being still.
And through being still, our attention can start to go inwards in happiness and love.
And you can't really put this into words properly.
You can't really fully explain this in words.
There's a sacred transmission, a holy transmission that occurs in the heart within us, where our outgoing mind somehow loves to go within and plunder the source of happiness within us, probes, probes at the happiness within us, and then eventually merges or dissolves into that.
That is the consumption, the consummation, that is, they're becoming one with that.
And when you become one with that, you realize it was just that. There wasn't anything else.
So there's no real becoming. But, you know, relatively speaking, there's a alchemy, magical dissolution.
And for me, it drips with bhakti, or devotional love, because that was what led me to that. That's the way I express it now.
Om namur bhagavate Sri aru nachla Ramanaya.
[00:18:37] Speaker A: That was beautiful. I don't even want to say anything anymore.
Podcast, Come on now.
[00:18:47] Speaker B: Apologies.
[00:18:49] Speaker A: It was wonderful.
[00:18:50] Speaker B: Thank you.
Thank you.
[00:18:55] Speaker A: It's like an initiation.
[00:18:56] Speaker B: Did you get a sense of it then.
[00:18:58] Speaker A: Oh, yeah. 100.
[00:19:00] Speaker B: Amazing. Amazing.
I mean, not everyone does. I mean, you know.
Yeah, but there's. There's a beingness, you see.
[00:19:13] Speaker A: Primordial beingness.
Before this body, after this body.
[00:19:18] Speaker B: Exactly. Prior to the body, prior to the body, prior to the body, consciousness, Prior to the body, awareness.
There is that which we call pure consciousness or pure awareness, but it is not.
It is the consciousness that is aware of the body. But it's.
It's also much.
Again, we will we. My words are going to be clumsy, but I'll say it's much bigger, much vast than that.
Much, much more vast than that.
Although these words don't really apply.
So it's that which was there prior to the whole of creation. And that is what you are.
Just like it says in Upanishads, so
[00:20:14] Speaker A: make all of God.
[00:20:16] Speaker B: Oh, yes, it is God. It is you. It is I. It is beloved or God.
It is Pokemon. It is Guru. It is Ramana. It is Ganesh. It is Krishna. It is Christ. It is whatever you want to call it.
Pagan Ramana often said that the. The best word for it is I.
The highest name of God is I or I am because it points directly, But I also like to call it Ramana. But it doesn't matter what you call it. Whatever you like, Whatever you like, as long as it's from the heart.
[00:21:02] Speaker A: Yeah,
[00:21:07] Speaker B: But you see, while we're paying attention to the body with its mind and thoughts and emotions and imaginings and the world, which is the environment that the body apparently lives in, this truth seems to elude us.
And the happiness diminishes, the bliss, the happiness diminishes. The more we occupy ourselves with the body, mind and world, what I call worldly things. When I say worldly things, I mean anything on the level of the body, the mind, which is. With its thoughts, feelings and imaginings, or the world. These are all worldly things in the way I use the language.
And as long as your attention is on these things, the sense, the true, vast, blissful sense of what you actually are, which is just pure fullness, pure positivity without any negativity, that pure fullness eludes you.
But when by some miracle, by some magic, whatever that miracle of magic is, by some miracle, by some magic, if you feel a desire somehow to turn your attention, to let your attention sink back into your. Into the recess of yourself, into your own very core, then we can discover this truth.
And that truth is so much more real than anything else that everything else seems like Fake or illusion afterwards, you see, it's just so much more real.
And once that's tasted, then you can't really go back and nor would you want to, because it's blissful.
[00:23:05] Speaker A: It's real than real.
[00:23:08] Speaker B: Real within real.
[00:23:09] Speaker A: Do you say realer than real?
[00:23:12] Speaker B: Realer than real. Yeah. Well, it's the only real. I mean, you can say how you want to say that. I'm not saying that's wrong or anything, but it's the only reality.
Yeah, it's the only real thing.
And then this body identity is seen to be.
To seem to be like a fake illusion. It's like a veneer, you know?
[00:23:37] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:23:38] Speaker B: It's like a nothing.
We're not. We're not.
I see some people, they intellectually try and convince themselves they're not the body, they're not the mind. I'm not the body, I'm not the mind. This kind of stuff.
Yeah, but this seems to me a sort of another kind of fakery where we're trying to convince the mind I'm not the body, I'm not the mind. This is like a defense, self. Defense mechanism or something.
[00:24:02] Speaker A: Things,
[00:24:04] Speaker B: what I experience, what I'm talking about is, is. Is totally different to that. It's.
It's connecting deeply in with is what you actually are.
And then everything else naturally, you're not trying to let any. You're not trying to think of anything as an illusion. Everything just falls away as a byproduct.
[00:24:28] Speaker A: It falls away in devotion.
[00:24:30] Speaker B: Devotion. Devotion, yes. Because you merge with the heart center, which is yourself, with Bhagavan Ramana.
You merge with Paguan Ramana in your heart.
He is that shining within your heart as I am.
He is sitting in meditation in your heart, in blissful consciousness. You can go to him, discover him. I'm speaking figuratively.
And then. Yeah, this is.
Go on, Gary.
No, go for it.
[00:25:20] Speaker A: I was just going to say, do you sense that is the byproduct of realization is devotion or some sort of servitude?
[00:25:33] Speaker B: You know, I mean, for me they're one and the same.
I cannot separate devotion from Bhagavan Ramana and all from myself, and cannot separate self knowledge from love of Pokemon Ramana. They're the same for me.
And the question of before and after doesn't make sense to me when it comes to this. It's just this is. That's. That.
That is it. It's.
This is saying.
[00:26:05] Speaker A: I know what you're saying.
[00:26:08] Speaker B: You do?
[00:26:09] Speaker A: I think so, yeah. So you know, you're always devoted to Ramana, even before you were conscious of it.
The eternal devotion.
[00:26:22] Speaker B: I never even thought of that.
Wow.
[00:26:26] Speaker A: That's how I took that.
[00:26:27] Speaker B: Wow.
[00:26:27] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:26:28] Speaker B: No, I love what you said that. Yeah, I think you're right.
In truth, yes.
I've always been into. I never even thought of that before.
Thank you, Gary.
Yes, you're right. I've always been, as you say, I realize that I've always been a devotee of Bhagavan Ramana. I never thought of it like that before, but then again, I don't think of it. I don't really think about it.
[00:26:49] Speaker A: So, yeah, that's what it seems like to me. It's like that's part of the miracle of realizing devotion is that. Wait a second.
I've always been devoted. This is a eternal devotion.
Right. And eternal doesn't mean just when I figure it out in this body. It's like, this was pre. This devotion came before me, quote unquote. And that's kind of part of the miracle. It's this forever servitude. Right?
[00:27:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:27:20] Speaker A: There's a Bob Marley song goes, we'll be forever loving Job.
That's like my mantra. We'll be forever loving Jesus forever.
And, yeah, forever doesn't just mean the future. Forever means the past as well. Same thing. But I think you know what I'm getting at.
[00:27:40] Speaker B: Oh, I love it. I'd never thought about it that way before.
Totally resonates with me. Thank you so much for that, for that gift.
[00:27:49] Speaker A: Sure, man.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: Oh, no, I'm just. I'm just taking a moment to really sort of process that same.
[00:28:01] Speaker A: Process it together.
[00:28:07] Speaker B: Wow. Oh, I love it. Yeah. I never thought of it. I've always been a devotee, Bhagwan. I have. Yes.
[00:28:15] Speaker A: It couldn't be any other way.
[00:28:19] Speaker B: Thank you. Thank you for that gift.
That's right.
[00:28:26] Speaker A: Trying to think, where do we go from here?
[00:28:32] Speaker B: Well, you know, often when I teach, when I share this, it's more of a sharing than a teaching. You know, it's not a preachy thing. When I share this, I'm often discovering, like, what. What. What you just showed me. There was a verbal representation of what I already know in my heart.
But I've not. I've not verbalized it that way before. Often when I'm speaking to people, that's better than saying teaching. Often when I'm sharing this or speaking about this with people, I'm discovering new verbal formulations as I'm saying them.
You know, sometimes I'll say it and I'll say, oh, that's a nice way of putting it.
And because the teaching flows intuitively, you know, so just to add that in.
[00:29:23] Speaker A: Yeah, that's why I love to do what I do on here with people. Because just when you think you've heard it all, somebody says something and something just clicks and it's like, ah, of course. How did I not think to formulate my words in that way? You know, that's the beauty of doing this. I think that's the beauty of the path is community and just relating to others that are also on the path. And like, I trade my way of saying, and you trade your way of saying it, and you come together and it forms this beautiful poetry.
And it can only happen in this. In this very novel moment where we're doing this. You know, if I tried to sit down and think and write it out, it doesn't work. Like, there's something about literally relating to somebody in the moment that spurs something new, some kind of, like, spontaneity that comes from it when people are. When two people, two or more people are aligned and tuned in. And obviously, you know, this. You do this regularly with people. So.
[00:30:19] Speaker B: No, no, I'm. I'm hearing what you're saying as if I've never heard it before.
So it's, you know, it's. I love character. Carry on. Carry on.
[00:30:29] Speaker A: Yeah. I mean, there's nothing much else to say other than the magic of relationality, I think, is like. It's almost like the second half of the path. I don't. I don't like to, you know, divide it into halves and, like, parts and levels, but it seems like to me, that's.
That's like. That's like the final stage is relating to others. You know, it's the Buddha, the Dharma, and last but not least, the Sangha. And I think if you.
I don't know. I don't like to speak for others, but if I were to ignore the community aspect of it in the relating to others, I would suffer. I don't know if I would suffer, but there'd be something missing. There'd be something missing in. In the magic. You could say part of the magic is just simply sitting down with somebody and. And talking.
[00:31:15] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:31:16] Speaker A: Sitting with the teacher. You know, there's something about that. I try to see the Buddha in everybody. When I come on here, I'm like, all right, today we're going to see the Buddha. I sit down with the Buddha, see how this goes.
Try and do that with everybody, you know, Talking to the audience here, the future audience, see if you can.
Whatever you find yourself in, whatever circumstance you find yourself in, whether it's your mom, your dad, your boss, the guy on the street asking for money, see if you can see the Buddha in his eyes. Because the truth of the matter is the Buddha is behind their eyes. It's just a matter if you can see it or not.
And they might not sound like the Buddha, they might not look like the Buddha, but they're in there.
[00:31:59] Speaker B: Very true.
Very true.
Can I be a bit cheeky and play devil's advocate?
[00:32:05] Speaker A: Yeah, go for it.
[00:32:07] Speaker B: You know, you said they don't always look like the Buddha, they don't always sound like the Buddha, but the Buddha's there in them, right? Yeah, totally agree.
But sometimes that Buddha is, like, really well disguised, right? Like, really good disguise. It's like, are you sure that's the Buddha in there? You know what I mean? It's like, you are really few of those. You are really annoying, you know?
[00:32:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:32:29] Speaker B: What do you do then? You know? Or what about, let's say, you know, take things a bit darker and then what if, you know, someone's being abusive or something? You know, what do you do then? What if someone's screaming and shouting? You. What do you do? Do you. Do you bow to the Buddha? What do you do?
[00:32:47] Speaker A: Yeah, you know, I bow to that Buddha is I run the other way.
[00:32:52] Speaker B: You run away from the Buddha.
[00:32:54] Speaker A: Yeah, sometimes that's the teaching. Or maybe sometimes you got to defend yourself, too. You know, sometimes the Buddha might be attacking you. I think that's the radicalness of the Buddha is that even the Buddha can take on the.
The. The face of darkness, the face of evil, and it's still no matter what, up to you to be able to digest that and intuitively discern what to do that is best for yourself in the moment. And it doesn't. Yeah, it doesn't mean you, you know, do some pranams at their feet. It might mean, like, you have to actually physically get into an altercation.
That's where it gets tricky, going into these things, because it's like.
It's like we still have free will and people can still be lost in.
And it's. How do I put this?
It doesn't mean submission. I guess, to sum it up, that's what I would say. It's just because you see the Buddha in somebody doesn't mean you submit to them. But I think that's. If you lead with every interaction, at least with that opportunity, it provides the potential for a better interaction. Now, obviously the other person is going to do what they're going to do, but it leads for that openness, leads to a potential better interaction with generally everybody. Obviously there's outliers and there's evil.
There's evil people. We could say on the surface level, but for most people, at least in my personal experience, if you try to see the Buddha in whatever interaction you're going with, you know, 95 of the time, it's going to be a better experience and you're not going to have to get in a physical altercation. So it's hard to speak generally because we're speaking very generally here. So it's like, can you see the Buddha and Donald Trump? It's like, I.
Yeah, I guess that's, you know, work in progress. But, you know, things of that nature, it's hard to like, it's hard to say in spiritual terms. You know, if we're talking here in dharmic terms, it's like, it's hard to generalize. That's all I'll say. It's hard to generalize. But usually, yeah, most of the time,
[00:34:55] Speaker B: if you can, I think you're giving an interesting. You're basically saying in general, it's a good rule of thumb, isn't it, to have that.
[00:35:01] Speaker A: That's it. Yeah, that's all I'm saying.
[00:35:02] Speaker B: It's a good rule in our modern lives, in our cultures, typically, most people you come across aren't trying to abuse you. Yeah, you know, that may happen, but in our lives presently, in our cultures, that's more the exception rather than the norm. So for most normal interactions is a good rule of thumb, isn't it? That's what I hear you saying.
[00:35:24] Speaker A: That's all I'm saying. Yeah, yeah, I think I over explained myself a little bit there, but that's all I'm saying.
[00:35:28] Speaker B: Good rule of thumb, right? No, it's great.
Thank you.
[00:35:34] Speaker A: I also think there's a certain magic too, almost in a quantum way where if you can approach life from that, you know, from the stillness, to be still and know as much as you can, you just don't attract that.
Those kind of people, you know, like attracts like. I think, and I think, you know, you're just gonna attract that good energy, doesn't mean somebody won't cut you off in traffic or things of that nature. But for the most part, if you're resonating with love, you're going to attract love.
[00:36:04] Speaker B: Totally, totally.
That's right.
[00:36:09] Speaker A: We shall see, though you know, who knows? Maybe I'm naive and speaking that and I'm going to go out and someone's going to punch me in the face on the street.
[00:36:16] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:16] Speaker A: Do I do that?
[00:36:17] Speaker B: I hope not, but yeah, who knows?
Same for me. Same for me, you know, so if next time you see me, I've got a big black eye.
[00:36:27] Speaker A: You got punched by the Buddha man.
[00:36:30] Speaker B: Good right hook, that Buddha.
[00:36:31] Speaker A: You know, that's the interesting dichotomy and position that we seem to be in in this incarnation is we can recognize the beauty, the bliss, the love that we truly are, but yet we also seemingly live in a dark world.
So it's like, how do you weigh those seemingly two polar opposites, you know, without.
[00:36:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:36:54] Speaker A: Without extinguishing yourself. It's like, how do you. How do you embody love without submitting too much and then actually hurting yourself? Like, how do you, like, weigh that? You know, toe that line between self preservation and then giving yourself to others? We could say it's an interesting thing, but I think that's grist for the mill, as Ram Dass said.
You know, that's like. That's part of the incarnation is like, that's.
It's like little breadcrumbs of lessons along the way. It's like, how.
How do you actually love? That's the question. I think that's why we're here in this. In this temporary vessel, I think, is to learn the lessons through the school of hard knocks.
Right. It's like, yeah, how do you love through the darkness, through the war, through all the just calamity that we seem to be in? And if you can, I think that that will deepen you into the love. That's the thing. It's like, if you can love despite the chaos of the world, I find that actually does deepen me into this embodiment more. So it can go the other way for sure. Right. If you get sucked into it, but if you know how to sort of transmutate it, I think that actually does make you a more loving being.
[00:38:12] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree.
I'll definitely.
[00:38:20] Speaker A: Let me ask you this, though, switching it up a little bit here.
What do you say makes a good teacher?
Right. Would you be able to describe that?
[00:38:32] Speaker B: Well, it's.
I probably wouldn't be able to describe it in a normal way because I think.
We get the teacher that we need at any one time.
Sometimes we don't get a teacher, and that's a teacher.
Sometimes we get a bad teacher.
That's a teacher.
And hopefully I know I don't. I don't want anyone to get a bad teacher, but sometimes that's the way we learn. So a good teacher appears in many different guises and forms.
[00:39:11] Speaker A: Yeah.
And you know what, that's kind of touching upon the topic that I was talking about here with the darkness and calamity of the world.
I almost think that the. Just the insanity of the world is a lot of people's teacher to kind of nudge them into the path. You know, I think it's like the anti teacher in a way. It's a way of seeing what is in it in order to realize what is it.
[00:39:39] Speaker B: And that's a great teacher, as you're saying. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Because we learn from positive things, but we also learn from negative things. We learn from mistakes and mishaps and sometimes they're our greatest teachers. But you know, we wouldn't wish a mishap or a negative thing on ourselves or anyone else.
But once they've happened, once they've happened, even though we don't want them to happen, we should try and find the lesson.
[00:40:10] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:40:11] Speaker B: Try and learn as much as we can. Because there's always something to learn from these mishaps even though we don't want them to happen.
[00:40:16] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the key. That's the transmutation right there.
[00:40:21] Speaker B: What do you mean by transmutation?
[00:40:25] Speaker A: It's a big word. I know.
[00:40:26] Speaker B: Yeah, it's a long. It's a long way.
You must be really clever using long words.
[00:40:33] Speaker A: It's like, so say something does happen to you, there is some sort of thing that is an affliction, at least seems like an affliction. The transmutation is to me, the changing of perspective on why it happened. One could see themselves as the victim and all this. The world is against me and why me? But the simple switch, the transmutation from being still is seeing how it happened for you and potentially hopefully seeing the lesson. So the transmutation is that. Hopefully from the stillness. You can see it not as a malady, but as a.
[00:41:17] Speaker B: As a gift even.
[00:41:18] Speaker A: Yes, gift, exactly.
[00:41:20] Speaker B: Everything that comes to us is a gift.
But of course it's not always right to say that to everyone because. Because it can be cruel to say that.
[00:41:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:30] Speaker B: In context. So the teaching is con. Cont. Context dependent. You know, teaching comes out in different ways in different contexts.
The transmutation for you is a change in perspective, isn't it? That's what you're describing. So for. I'll give an example if I can. If I sort of reflect back to you what I heard you say.
Like, imagine a child grows up and says, oh, my mum and dad, they were really horrible to me. They were really, really horrible to me. I had a terrible childhood.
And then you say to the child, well, what do they do? And the child says, well, they didn't give me any sweets. They didn't let me have any candy at all. All my friends were eating sweets and my parents didn't give me any sweets at all.
And then you have a conversation with that child and then you explain to them, you know, negative effects of eating sugar and eating sugary sweets and candy and such.
And now their perspective has changed. They realize that what their parents did was out of love.
And the parents even risked damaging the relationship with the child because the child wants to have the sweets. And the parents going against the child's wishes.
And so the child can now, you know, in this simplistic hypothetical example, child has now shifted the perspective.
Nothing's actually changed. The past events are the same.
Nothing's actually changed, but their perspective has changed and that allows them to not suffer and now see their parents in a new light.
So the perspective has gone from a narrow perspective, a wider perspective, and that means suffering lessons.
Is that what yours. Is that transmutation? Is that what you mean by transmutation?
[00:43:14] Speaker A: Yeah, it's very well spoken.
It's just that simple switch of seeing
[00:43:18] Speaker B: it all differently and, and liberation is like that in a way.
[00:43:22] Speaker A: Yeah, I was just going to say that you can.
[00:43:25] Speaker B: Much more than that. It's much more than that, though. Liberation. It's much, it's much deeper than that. But in a way it's like that because when you see the truth to yourself, the perspective, everything changes.
Everything changes.
Nothing causes any suffering. Nothing.
Zero.
Because you are that.
You are that.
That blissful reality. And that is the only singular reality. That's the only thing.
So it's such a radical shift in perspective.
It's. It's not a shift in perspective for a person, though. It goes beyond the person. This is where the analogy of transmutation as we've described it breaks down.
But there's something like that.
[00:44:15] Speaker A: Yeah, it's touching upon that.
[00:44:21] Speaker B: And relatively speaking, the vaster the. The more wide our perspective, the less we suffer. Typically, that's not always the case. Sometimes knowing a little bit more makes us suffer more.
So a little bit more knowledge can sometimes feel like a curse. And you might think, I wish I was ignorant because I was happier when I was ignorant. I was happier when I knew less.
But eventually, if we widen our perspective enough and go into the spiritual, go beyond the material, the physical, the psychological, the mental, and we go towards the spiritual. If we really widen our perspective and go and come into our heart, we'll see how widening our perspective reduces suffering, relatively speaking.
[00:45:09] Speaker A: Now.
Well, thank you for sharing. It's beautiful.
I don't know if we already talked about this or not, but what do you mean by suffering? Because to someone that doesn't know any better, that's listening right now, they're like, well, you know, I got a foot ache, I got a headache, I got something going on, right? We all got something going on.
Pain or emotional anguish, whatever it is.
And one may dub that as suffering.
How does that disappear? By opening up the aperture. We could say,
[00:45:50] Speaker B: well, if all we're doing is widening our perspective as a person, it won't end all suffering, but it will reduce suffering.
So it won't end all suffering, but it will allow us to live, live more skillful, happier lives, relatively speaking. But doesn't end suffering.
Liberation ends all suffering. That means any kind of pain, physical or psychological.
It ends actually to go really deep. It ends birth.
It ends birth.
Birth means being born as a person.
And that is the error, that is the malady.
You said malady earlier. That the error is we think we're born, we think we take a human form, we think we live a life. This is all illusion. None of it actually happened.
So self birth is suffering. To be born as a person is suffering.
That is suffering.
And the Buddha said this. I like the way the Buddha said it. He kept it very simple and direct. He said, birth is suffering.
He said illness is suffering.
To have a cough or a cold or infection or to stub your toe, this is suffering.
To grow old. Old age is suffering, death is suffering.
So there, these are like. And there are many other kinds of suffering too. The psychological suffering, the pain of seeing things happen to yourself that you don't want to happen to yourself. The pain of seeing things happen to your loved ones, your nearest and dearest, and you don't want those things to happen.
But the Buddha said, very simply, he said that suffering is birth, growing old, disease, death, and everything else that's suffering.
This is what ends with liberation.
It's truly on a different dimension to being a person.
For the person, there can be no cessation of suffering.
For the body, mind, there can be no cessation of suffering. Body mind will always experience fluctuations, ups and downs of emotions, of thinking and of physical issues, whether it's you know, stubbing your toe, twisting your ankle or having something more serious.
There's always the weather.
At least here in the uk, you know, our weather's always changing, you know.
Where are you by the way, Gary? Where are you based?
[00:48:28] Speaker A: I live outside of Boston.
[00:48:30] Speaker B: Okay, so your weather's, your weather's changeable as well. Yeah.
So like the weather is always changing. You can't, it's not like when you're liberated, it never rains, you know. So on the body mind level there's change always happens. But in liberation that doesn't affect you, none of that affects you.
Someone else might see the body mind of a, of a Nyani, of a sage and think, oh look, they're suffering. But from the sages point of view, there's no suffering. There's not even any birth, there's not any incarnation. Even so on the deepest level, what is suffering? It is incarnation that means becoming. A Kane is the Latin for flesh or meat.
So incarnation means to become flesh, to become a person.
In Sanskrit the word is jiva. Jiva means the same thing. It means the soul that becomes incarnated.
So jiva is suffering, Earth is suffering.
I'll tell you a story, please.
So Bhagavan Ramana had many devotees in late, especially later on in his life as he became more well known.
And every year they love to celebrate his birthday.
And Bhagavan Romney hadn't. If you read about him and his teachings, he, he often tries to change everything into a teaching when appropriate.
You may think this one is inappropriate, but he said what he used to say to people. Why are you celebrating my birth?
This is, this is when the malady, the illness came upon us. Why are we celebrating this day? Instead of celebrating our birth, why not turn our attention back towards ourself and discover ourself and thereby be rid of this birth.
And that is the real celebration.
So even when people trying to celebrate his birthday, he was like almost rebuking them only I suspect only when it to the appropriate devotee, you know, to others he probably said yes, thank you very much. You know, he doesn't want to offend them and if they're not mature enough to understand the deeper teaching, he's not going to like probably be a kill dry I don't think.
But to the appropriate devotee who pointed out why are you celebrating my birth? Why are you celebrating birthday?
This is the day the ignorance came upon you, so to speak, that ignorance precedes birth.
You know, ignorance is prior to birth, prior to this Body.
This body is one of many.
But discover that which is prior to birth.
And the Buddha said the same thing. The Buddha said there is something that is never born, birthless.
And in Buddhism, they said ajata. Ajata means without birth. And he said it's something without death, deathless. Buddha often called it the deathless and the birthless. He didn't use the word self. He's described things often quite negatively, what it isn't. So he said there is something without birth, without death.
If there wasn't that thing, liberation would not be possible.
But because that thing is there, there is the possibility of liberation.
Find that thing.
This is from the early Pali suttas, the earliest teachings we have from the Buddha. You see these teachings there?
So is this birth is the. Is suffering and discovering that what you are the birth prior to birth.
Ajata prior to birth.
That is cessation of suffering.
[00:52:39] Speaker A: Yeah.
That's immortality.
It's like the only way we become immortal is by seeing we were never born in the first place.
[00:52:53] Speaker B: That's it.
You are that which birth and death do not apply.
[00:53:00] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:53:03] Speaker B: And that's. That's again, to use this metaphor, it's a total shift in perspective.
Of course, as I said, it's much vaster than that, really, because a shift in perspectives for a person. And this is this. This is. This takes you out of being a person.
This destroys the illusion that you're ever a person.
And that can't be explained in words.
[00:53:29] Speaker A: Yeah.
Here we are trying to do it, you know, putting on a seeming show here.
But yeah, what else is there to talk about? I don't know. That's just what I feel.
There's no higher honor than to speak on these things. Speak on the ineffable.
Excuse me.
Well, hey, Tom Das, I think that's a beautiful note to wrap this up at about to you and I thank you so much for joining me today.
[00:54:09] Speaker B: So welcome. Thank you so much. And I really appreciate you and your expression, the way you share things. It's really amazing. Really wonderful.
Much love.
[00:54:24] Speaker A: Thank you.
[00:54:24] Speaker B: Much appreciated. Much love.
Thank you so much.
[00:54:28] Speaker A: Do you have anything else you want to say? You just want to keep it at that.
[00:54:32] Speaker B: I guess the only other thing to say is if people want to find me, I hold online meetings twice a week.
You can have a. You can check out my website, tomnus.com if you resonate, come along. Be great to see you.
[00:54:49] Speaker A: Awesome. I'll put everything down in the description for people to find you, but yeah, this is great. Thank you, Tom. I I'm feeling it, feeling the vibes, feeling very relaxed.
And that's a true testament, you know, whenever there is a.
A sort of a somatic difference, we could say from the conversation, I know that there's something there. There's truth in how you speak. So that's it. I don't know. I just want to express my thanks for that. Express my thanks again for you joining me.
Keep up the awesome work, Tom.
[00:55:27] Speaker B: Thank you so much. Thank you, Gary. Appreciate it. Thank you.
[00:55:31] Speaker A: Peace and love, everybody.
