Secrets of the Left-Hand Path: Goddess Kali, Cyber Tantra & Divine Chaos

[00:00:00] Speaker A: O Karala vadanam ghoram Muktakeshim Chatur bhujaam Dakshinam devyam Sadhyas Chinashira kadaga vam dhardava Karambujam Abhayambaradam Jaiva Dakshinodwada Panikam Mahame gha prabham shyamam Tatha chaya. I meditate on that terrific and awe inspiring fierce goddess Kali, whose hair is wild and free. She has four arms in her two lotus like left hands. She holds a sword covered in blood and a severed human head. She assures fearlessness and grants boons with the mudras of her two right hands. Her skin is black, the color of a dark splendorous storm cloud. And she is utterly naked, clad in only the ten directions. She is garlanded in a garland of human heads. And the blood from this garland anoints her beautiful neck and body. Her breasts are full and her fangs are terrific. Her two lips are stained red with blood as she smiles sweetly. She is drunk and happy and amused. She is that southward facing Goddess Kali, the giver of boons, the dweller in the cremation ground, always in sexual bliss with her consort Bhairava. May this be an offering to her. Om Kali. [00:01:26] Speaker B: Om Shanti. [00:01:30] Speaker C: Om Kali. [00:01:32] Speaker B: Beautiful. Thank you. [00:01:35] Speaker D: Wow, that's impressive, Nish. I still have to look at the. At the text to remember that whole thing. [00:01:45] Speaker B: No, for sure. That's. That was beautiful. Thank you for that. One thing I just am prompted to share about Kali Ma that really changed my relationship with her was [00:02:01] Speaker D: I was [00:02:02] Speaker B: in meditation chanting her mantra, and I was overwhelmed with suffering, with all the suffering of just life. And. And she said, just give it to me. Why are you holding onto it? Just give it to me. And. And I. I did. I just gave it. I can't. I can't explain how I just gave it to her. And I saw a vision in my head of her coming out with her sword and she cut the heads off of all of my enemies, everything that caused me suffering. And at the instant that she did that, all of the suffering became ecstasy. It was pure ecstasy. And. And. And that's when she became my mother. So thank you for. For invoking her here. That was beautiful. [00:02:49] Speaker A: Yes, yes. We who are fellow mad brothers in the cremation ground drinking the mad bowl of ecstasy that is other. Other people call suffering fellow drunkards. [00:03:01] Speaker B: Yeah. Well. And. And with that. That's a great point. Is that with that, that's changed my relationship to suffering. All I have to do is stop Attaching to it, and it becomes blissful. [00:03:11] Speaker A: Right, right, right, right. There's a poem. Who dares misery, love. Who dares dance destructions dance. Who will hug the form of death? To him the mother comes. [00:03:20] Speaker C: Oh, wow, that's good. [00:03:25] Speaker B: How do you follow that? [00:03:29] Speaker C: We are getting right into this one, man. Yeah, you changed up the whole vibe when you did that prayer. Nish. [00:03:35] Speaker A: It's an invocation. [00:03:37] Speaker B: That is the point of it, is to change the vibe, to plug yourself in. Yeah, that's. That's like the one thing that we can do, that's the only task we have to do, is to plug into them, plug into the greater power, plug into the other side. And after that you just let go and they do the rest. Whatever healing you need, whatever manifestation you need, all you have to do is plug in and let go. But plug in and it is, it is, you know, creates that shift that you. You need to feel that shift because you're not just shifting inside yourself. I believe you're shifting into a greater reality and you're shifting into the reality of the things that you desire that are best suited for you. These shifts are very. It is shifting us into an energetic frequency that could. Could create an entire pathway that leads us forward that we wouldn't have had if we don't shift into that shift. [00:04:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Yes, yes, yes. And the way that they describe the Sanskrit language is so interesting too, because there are all these magical languages you well know as a ritualist. And it's like the claim is, the languages we speak, like, we're speaking English now, These are prakrits, they just develop naturally and spontaneously as we interact. But languages like Sanskrit, they're called artificial, so they're a bit more like C or Python. It's not a language you use to, like, interface with people, but a language symbolically that interfaces with the subconscious. And given that the whole world, we claim, appears within that consciousness, that language then codes for that shift and what parts we experience. And the whole picture can change with just the right mantra chanted with the right tones. [00:05:04] Speaker C: And the proof is in the pudding. I legitimately feel different when one of the. [00:05:09] Speaker B: One of the little phrases that I've created is every. Every word you speak is a spell. And, you know, I'll get clients a lot that'll be repeat clients that come to me complaining a lot. And. And they always have something new to complain about. And so I've started giving them the. The task of, you know, you're. You're for. For one week. Don't Complain about anything. Just keep your mouth shut. If you find in your head, try to shut it down. Just. Just don't go there and don't engage with it. And all of a sudden, they come to me with their next consultation. Oh, man, my whole life has improved. You're creating through the words you speak, through the vibration of those words and the beliefs that you have attached to them. You're creating the frequency of things going wrong. [00:05:53] Speaker A: Yes. [00:05:54] Speaker B: So even when things are. Even when things are going wrong, if you can do this little trick of finding things to be grateful for, then it starts reversing it. [00:06:03] Speaker A: Right, right. [00:06:04] Speaker D: A good. Good example of that is when I was just talking about Kali. All of a sudden I hear just crazy static in my. In my headphones. And some of my members of the Kula were in there on, like, closed circuit watching this whole thing because they wanted to watch along. So I have a absolute computer wizard here, and he set up this huge thing with all these cables and got it all set up and it was working, but then one little piece of the software just glitched out on us. So all of a sudden, I was talking about Khali and I was hearing this roar. It's like this. The. The. [00:06:37] Speaker A: Chill the out. [00:06:39] Speaker D: Yeah, chill out. Goddamn. No, don't chill out. I love it. But yeah, you got. [00:06:44] Speaker B: She won't listen. [00:06:46] Speaker D: She's like, shut the up. Don't talk about me right now. [00:06:52] Speaker A: She's like, shut the up and start a dance party. [00:06:56] Speaker D: Exactly right. So I'm gonna shut up about Kali for now. [00:07:02] Speaker C: You don't want to say what you were gonna say? [00:07:05] Speaker D: No, if she wanted me to say it, it would have worked out earlier. Sometimes Khalid just wants you to like. Like Nish was saying, she just wants you to shut up and dance. She's very non conceptual. I ain't gonna question her. I don't want to get the foot to the face right now. [00:07:22] Speaker B: When many, many years ago, I went to this yogi, before I ever even practiced yoga much, I went to this yogi, and he did a energy work session with me. We did a bit of a talk therapy. Talked about the problems I was having. And, you know, and then he just, you know, chakra alignment or something. And at the end of it, he said. He said, I kept getting this message for you, and that message is dance. And I'm like, whoa, buddy, I don't dance. And he's like, what do you mean you don't dance? I'm like, I don't. I came from a strict Mormon household. Where you don't really loosen up your body at all. And, you know, you're. You're. I just don't dance. And he's like, well, that's. He goes 100%. That's the message that's coming through, is you need to dance. And so I. That. That planted that seed in me. And it was maybe a couple. Couple months later, I'm just at a park, there's some festival going on, and there's music going on. And sure enough, I pushed myself to get up there and dance. And ye. It changed my life. It changed my interaction with the world around me. It's like. And still. It is 100. It is still a. I gotta push past my ego to get myself to get up and just dance. But. But once you. Once I do, it does unlock a beautiful connection with your body. Feeling the energy and letting your body move with the energy. It's amazing. So when you said shut up and dance, you. That really hit me because it's like, no, that is. There's so much that gets unlocked and getting out your head and getting into your body. [00:08:53] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And with Kali, like, the battlefield, like, going out to war, that's a dance, and the bedroom is a battlefield. And it's like any kind of, like, violent erotic action, any kind of dynamism. Oh, that's her worship. She just loves it. [00:09:09] Speaker C: Yeah, because you said dance, like, literally, right, Eric? But are there other ways of dancing? Like, how would you describe the dance with Kali? [00:09:18] Speaker B: Well, you know, that is a beautiful question, because you can't work with Kali in the way that you might work with a demon, where you call her up and command her to do your will. That's not how she works at all. She'll burn you. She will burn you alive. And she'll have fun with it. She'll laugh the entire time while you're burning. But instead, if you enter this dance of inviting her in, inviting her to teach you. You know how I began my dance with Kali is I got a mala, 108 beads of skulls that I would just chant her mantra on every day. And that was my beginning of just dipping myself into her until I started to receive. So the first time I heard her voice, after I'd been doing months of mantra work with her, and I was feeling her presence. Her presence. Just, oh, a mother and a lover and everything. But the first time I heard her voice come into my mind, I was doing my mantra as I'm driving to the gym. I get to the gym, and I just Instinctively went to go hang the mala on the mirror, on the rear view mirror. And she says, that's not what you do with that. This isn't an air freshener. And I went, yeah. Oh. And without even questioning, well, where should I put it? She says, somewhere you would put something that you value. And I was like, well, I'm going to put my phone in the. In the side pocket here when I go into the gym. So I'm going to put her right, you know that right there with the other things that I value and I want to keep safe. And. And I didn't even question it. The whole conversation was happening in my mind. I didn't. Didn't question. I stopped doing what I'm doing. I put it where it needs to go. And then as I'm getting out of the car to go into the gym, the last thing she said was, you're a very good listener. And I went, oh, dude, that is. That is such a beautiful thing to say to me. And. And that made me realize that's a superpower, is not. Not in knowing things, but in being able to just listen. [00:11:30] Speaker C: Listen and surrender. [00:11:31] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Surrender. [00:11:33] Speaker A: Yeah. [00:11:38] Speaker B: Well, go ahead. [00:11:39] Speaker A: The image of surrendering on top of Shivji. And so we're. That we're just lying down, listening and holding space for whatever she wants to do. [00:11:50] Speaker B: But the surrendering things, this is the bitch of it. Because many of us come onto specifically the left hand path because we're looking for power. We're looking for control over our circumstances. But the. In the end, it always comes down to giving up that power, to letting go of the control. And that's when the miracle happens. That's when the. That's when you know you actually do have power, is when you give it up. It's a really. It's a really strange thing, but it's like even on the left hand path, we've come to that same realization of, like, you can't have power by grabbing it. You actually have to let it go. [00:12:23] Speaker D: Suppose the truth is a woman. [00:12:26] Speaker A: Yes, John Ma. Yeah. So imagine there's like a circle. And we argue that, like, all reasoning and all conscious activity happens within that circle. And then beyond that circle is this vast, unexplored country, this, like, dark realm of what you might call the Jungian unconscious or collective unconscious or something, right? Then Kali, her wildness, her madness, much like a storm God, like Poseidon or something, she represents that chaotic realm of possibility. And it's like the power that she confers is the power of opening up fully to that chaos realm. So this mashana, the cremation ground, the jungle, the ocean, these are all metaphors for Kali. And on the right hand path, we, like, there are strong rules against going to the creation ground. Strong rules against, like what not to eat liquor and intoxicants. These are, of course, forbidden in the right hand path because they open us up to that vast realm of chaos. And so on the left hand part, the way then that we attain that power is by opening ourselves up to that chaos. And so it takes a very strong constitution in the conscious mind, a very developed intellect, and a very strong body, and of course, a very strong psychic constitution to be able to digest the sheer force of Kali that pours through. And then such a person becomes like a. Like a madman, like chaotically inspired. And they do things in the world that are unpredictable, and often that ostracizes them from loved ones, from society. And so that's the risk of the quote, unquote, left hand part, the bomb, the kaulacharya, with regards to Kali. It's a path of surrender, a path of devotion. But the energy that you're surrendering to has slightly more of a dramatic symbolic force than the saumya, or gentle deities that you surrender to on the right. So devotion is still there in both parts. The question is, what is the to? What does that devotion flow? [00:14:03] Speaker B: Well, and you're inviting instability. You're inviting a destabilization of your entire system and even the energy around you. And I think it does take a certain kind of person to ride that wave, you know, because. Because it is most. Most people, honestly, I've had most people that I've talked to about Kali, they'll work with her just for periods, and then they have to pull away because it's too intense, it's too much. But it does take us, a certain kind of madman to just keep riding that wave. And to not have that, not to not have that in that destabilization, destroy your life or destroy you. Because, you know, that's. That's easily where it could go for sure. But, you know, you said. You said something there about also you're having a healthy body. So over the past almost four years now, I've been sober from hard drugs, you know, plants. Plants and. And mushrooms, whatever. I don't care about that. But, but real, real tox. And most of my life, I had been on something or another, Whether it was pills or whatever, I was always on something. With these last few years of sobriety, my ability to access Spiritual states is through the roof. And I started thinking about it. And previously I would feel really physically uncomfortable when I started breaking through to higher states or to deeper states. I'd feel agitated, like, I gotta get out of this. I gotta make this stop. And. And it would even feel. You know, I'd feel dizzy and feel. And. And it is that. That my nervous system, being constantly toxified, wasn't. Wasn't capable of opening itself up to this. And so there is something about having a healthier body and, you know, don't be a health freak, but, you know, having a healthy body, having an open. That isn't a matter of openness, that you want to have a looseness in your body, which I think is perfectly developed through. Through yoga. [00:16:14] Speaker A: Yes, yes, yes. I've seen a lot of cases here where we'll do a Kali puja. People will come. Sometimes people bring friends who maybe have never experienced maa or whatever. Sometimes when they see the. Just the mere image of Kali, you know, especially that picture up there. When they walk in and they see her, they get a physical reaction and then they feel uncomfortable and they. They leave. They sometimes throw up or they leave. And one time we were bringing up the lemon for the bali. Now, it wasn't a black rooster or anything dramatic like that, but it's still, you know, there's the mantras, there's the knife. And it's kind of funny because it's so dramatic, but then it's like the vegetable that gets chopped. But as the knife goes up, this Swedish gentleman who had. And he seemed like a very tall and strong and like, kind of like, you know, he was with it for hours in the puja up to that moment when the bali was about to happen. But he felt that energetic shift of the bali, and he had this, like, physical reaction to it, and he had to run out of the room. And I've noticed a lot of times when that energy arises, the discomfort of it, it is important, I think, that people honor that and move away when it feels like too much. But then you're right. Like through certain dietary practices and various other yogic practices, one tunes to that energy or at least becomes the kind of person for whom discomfort is no longer disturbing. [00:17:20] Speaker B: Oh, the last thing you said. There is the key of it, of no longer being bothered by the. By it. By it, because it is. It is still lifting you up or, you know, your energy is still doing your. Doing its thing. It's just maybe you've become acclimated to it and then it Becomes a fun ride that you're taking rather than, yeah, I love it. [00:17:43] Speaker A: Horror movies and spicy food, you get a taste for it, [00:17:48] Speaker C: thrive in the chaos. [00:17:49] Speaker D: I feel that, well, you know, Kali, I said earlier, suppose truth is a woman, which is a quote from Nietzsche from Beyond Good, the preface of Beyond Good and Evil. And basically what he was saying with that is that there are certain aspects of what you can consider to be truth that are completely irrational and chaotic. And when you engage with this non dual perspective that we're seeking in vamashara or we should have attained before we practice vamashara if we don't want to completely ourselves up, you've got to stop looking for this ultimate expression of morality or ultimate expression of what is right or wrong and just realize that there's poison to be found in everything and there's medicine to be found in everything. And when we bring our attention to the left hand, we're bringing our attention to shakti. Well, there's a dissolving quality of shakti just as there's a dissolving quality of shiva. You can fall into the mother as much as the father. And the mother is this intense, chaotic selfishness, but the father is this very ordered, inert selfishness. And eventually the self is completely collapsed into the wholeness of the mother or the father. So yeah, you've got to attune yourself to those forces. When you're, when you're bringing your attention to Dakshina Shar, on the right hand path, you're trying to bring your attention more to the inertia of the father. And on the left hand path, you're bringing your attention to the activity of the mother. And everyone has to know what is enough of those forces. When does the poison become too much and, and, or when. When have I not had enough poison? [00:19:40] Speaker C: When is the poison nectar? [00:19:44] Speaker B: Well, even with that, when it, whenever there's references to the poison becoming nectar, that transmutation is only done within your own system, that you have to first drink the poison and convert it into nectar. So there's a, there's a bit of a leap of faith you have to do there of like, like now I'm ready to take the poison. Yeah. [00:20:05] Speaker A: Yes. And having datura or say belladonna, like since I got to this country, I've become very fond of the nightshade, the belladonna. And I noticed like, like in small doses, it's not even so much that it takes the body and its internal practices to de poison the poison, but also to turn it into its Hallucinogenic correlate. It's like these things, there's like a two step process. It almost feels like where the first step is to defang the poison to prevent the respiratory collapse that the belladonna is supposed to incur. And then next step it seems like is then to propitiate the spirit of that plant. So it, or this we say the medicine with Oshada and Sanskrit, which is different from Stavra. So the medicine of the plant is like the soul whose body is the plant. And so once the plant is consumed, then the question is whether or not that aad, that spirit will grant its visions or not. And what kind of visions it grants, I notice is so different for different people. They have very different relationships with the poison. [00:20:59] Speaker B: Yeah, well, there's a similar thing with, with dmt. You can drink the ayahuasca and have a good encounter with the mother, or you can go through this chemical process, this violent chemical process of extracting that out and ending up with this, this, these, the, the DMT molecules which is, that's the spirit taken out of the matter. And then it's a lot more violent. You know, it has, it hits you with, with that, that ferocity and, and, and a very similar type of thing, taking the grabbing the spirit out. And you got to be careful, I think that we, you know, with, with that. I've always preferred ayahuasca over DMT for that reason of like they're having the, the plant matter. It's not just garbage that you throw away. That's part of the experience, that's part of the being that you're connecting with. [00:21:51] Speaker A: Yes, yes. And it will react violently in response to that aggression. Like we argue that the yeast cells, when they're crushed to create alcohol, they curse the alcohol. And so like all the things that happen, say all the domestic violence is associated to alcoholism, all the drunk driving and like all the psychological illness. It's like, it's probably the anger of those yeast cells or whatever. So the process of offering alcohol in the puja, it's such an elaborate thing where you're doing like all these different Vija mantras to remove the curse of Venus, the curse of Brahma and the curse of Krishna. There's even the Krishna look away mantra. There's like a particular Kaula mantra where it's basically like Krishna and Vaishnavas. Get the fuck out of the room so I can offer this alcohol and by the time you get to like drink from coconut bowl or whatever, it's like 30 minutes in. that point I just like ah, it. Why would I even. Or even like the sex ritual. It's just like, like people come in, they're like, I'm so excited for this Kaula Yaga. And then it's like here's a Nyasa on the yoni for the next 45 minutes with the 64 yoginis. Kapali ni nama kali ni nama kul. And they're like damn it, I'm going to need a fluffer at this point. What the is going on to remove all these like. Yeah, yeah, these violences. [00:22:59] Speaker B: That's great. Yeah. And that's interesting in itself is that everything in our, everything in our world is being, is possessed or controlled or a symbol. That's an open gateway, especially in society, in marketing. You know, you walk around any city and it's, you're being brainwashed by all the, all the different things around you. And so it's an interesting thing of purifying those essences, especially in the things that are in your home or the things that you're going to be interacting with ritually for sure. Getting rid of the, the, the, any kind of the programming. Because I do think that that's, that's a, that's a huge thing is the program. Programmability of energy. Energy can be told what to do. And, and so we have that. And, and unconsciously, you know, you go into a city, the energy is programmed with a bit of a higher anxiety and higher agitation than you have in other places. The people have programmed the energy field. [00:23:59] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:24:00] Speaker B: But there's an experiment, I can't remember what it was called. It's named after the city it was done in. But where you have a certain, if you, if you have a certain percentage of people meditating in that city, crime rate goes down. [00:24:12] Speaker A: Right, right, right. [00:24:13] Speaker B: I can't remember what that study is called, but that's a, it is a, it is a thing that they've been able to track over and over and over again. And that's just programming the energy field. [00:24:22] Speaker A: And to Skyler G's point about poisons and, and like lack of morality, suppose God is a woman. So like in the Shaiva Siddhanta, obviously there's a very vedicized brah sense of right and wrong, or rather really pure and impure. So it would be wrong to consume impure foods, go to impure places or do impure things. The morality is premised on energetic purity. But in the Dakshinachara, in the Shaiva Siddhanta the view is that these energetic impurities reside in the thing itself. And that makes certain things like manifestly bad, like meat or alcohol or inter caste marriage or things like that. Right. But then on the vamachara side, it's like the recognition that if we throw those concepts aside, if impurity and purity were not in the food but rather in the practitioner. Abhinavagupta's first move is to change the word mala from meaning impurity in the physical world to impurity in the intellect or understanding. Then we get this not immoral but amoral claim that all energy is just energy. And if you're being harmed by it or if you're harming by other people by, it's not the Shakti's fault, you're just stupid. The Bahamacharya is arguably the kind of person who can take the poisons of Buddhism. Anger, greed, whatever, you know, all the poisons turn it either into ecstatic hallucinogenic experiences or empowering experiences. So therefore, I think there's a bit more capacity to work with shakti's or moods or energies or substances both internally and externally that the right would reject as it being inherently impure. [00:25:41] Speaker B: Well, even with the distinctions of left and right and white and dark and whatever, a lot of this is a self selection away from the majority. So the majority is going to fall into the right hand path. And then you got those of us freak shows that gravitate towards the crazy stuff. And in that way we are. There's been a place in every society for the shaman. And I think our society is currently trying to find the proper place for the shaman and to bring the shaman back. Because our society has been dying under the priests. The priests have not been doing a service. We need to get the shamans back. And. And there is that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. [00:26:22] Speaker A: Baba Gary, did you mind if I ask Eric G. A question? [00:26:24] Speaker C: Go for it. [00:26:25] Speaker A: Yeah. Because I was wondering, because I was very. One thing is, when I was a kid, I remember I was like, like 15 or 16 or something. I'd seen one of your videos on YouTube way back when and it made quite an impression on me actually. You were saying something about being in a cemetery and you were smoking a cigarette and a particular spirit had come and it said to you, turn out that infernal incense or something. I enjoyed that so much being in this like puja world. So at that time I was very interested in Western ceremonial magic. And so I was coming across your channel and other people's channels about like ritual work in the Western Tradition, which I was trying to find parallels for in the puja tradition. So now having come to America, when I moved here, I started encountering like hekate worship and Lilith worship. And so when I perform Kali puja, sometimes it's with like lodges in which hekate is a central deity or lilith, essentially. So my question is, to what extent are like some goetic presences interchangeable with deities in the Hindu pantheon? Are they completely separate pantheons? Or can one read Lilith and Hekate as like different names or different cultural responses to the same energy that we would call Kali? Do you feel they're the same entities or are there nuances? [00:27:26] Speaker B: Well, so I think it's the, the, the, the same energy, the same archetypal energy is manifesting as different people, as different as different entities. I think, I think we get. People get really into the weeds when they start saying, oh yeah, you know, Satan is also Shiva and that's also this God and that's also. No, no, no, no, no. Shiva is Shiva. Satan is Satan. It's important that we treat them as the beings that they are. But they have a similarity. There is clearly similarities between Satan and Shiva. There are clearly similarities in my view from Abaddon to Kali. Abaddon is the only one that I've seen that even comes close to Kali, though, because she is so massive. Because the thing with Kali is it's not just a name of a person. It's a place beyond place. It's a time outside of time. [00:28:18] Speaker A: Time. [00:28:19] Speaker B: And so when we say Kali, it's beyond just a figure. It's something beyond all of that. Abaddon has a very similar ring to it. I do see with Belial. Belial, that he has a lot of similarities to. Oh, dang it. The elephant headed God is not thinking of it, Lyle. [00:28:44] Speaker A: And Ganesha. [00:28:45] Speaker B: Ganesh. Ganesh, exactly. Ganesh. Breaker, breaker of boundaries, breaker of chains, breaker of obstacles. And so I can see those alignments. But again, I don't think it's fair to say, like Belial and, and Ganesh are the same entity. That's not true at all. But there's the same, same thing that's coming out of them. Just like amongst humans, you know, we've got some people that are, you know, the victims, some people that are the heroes, some people that are the teachers. And we always see these archetypes rising. We see a similar thing, I think, among the different pantheons. And so, so yeah, I think there crossover with the energy, but. But not enough to say that it's like the same being incarnating as these different things. I think that. I think that that's. It's. Again, it's really important. These powers are manifesting as deities. I think intentionally. I don't think this is just accidental. I don't think we're just making up. I think we are very clearly being communicated with by the higher reality. And so part of that communication is sending forth these avatars, whether it. Whether it's a person to give us the teaching or whether it's these deities. And I think it's even the way that they show up. If it shows up as Shiva, that is very important. There's a communication there. If it shows up as Satan, that's a. There's a communication on why it showed up that way. And so. So I think it's important to not conflate them, but to. To. To recognize the energy pattern, but also the communication of the identity that an energy pattern is emerging and has. [00:30:17] Speaker A: Beautiful. [00:30:20] Speaker B: With the cigarette thing, that's beautiful that you mentioned that, because that kind of comes back to the thing that Skyler was saying of getting rid of the ideas of right and wrong and good and evil and what's right for you right now. Now, with that, the spirits didn't come up to me and they said, put that cigarette out. It's going to give you cancer. It's bad for you. No, they said, it's a nauseous incense. Those words stuck in my mind. It's a nauseous incense incense. And it was like, oh, okay, so it's not anything moral. It's just for the purposes of working with you. It's not the incense that you like. There are a lot of entities that do like tobacco. A lot of the voodoo, loa and the South American spirits love tobacco, but certain spirits don't. And so it is a matter of what is right for the situation. [00:31:06] Speaker A: Right. Yeah. That's beautiful. Because some people want to worship Kali, but they have a big problem with, like, animal sacrifice with Panchamakara. And it's like, it's not about whether you like it or don't like it. It's about whether she likes. And if she likes a certain kind of worship. It's like, if you love her, then you'll give her what you have a guest come to your house. It's like you want to prepare the meal that you know that they like. [00:31:26] Speaker B: Oh. And you know, and if. If those things revolt you, maybe it's not your path. That's exactly. That's okay. Yeah. And with that, you know, I. I have indeed given blood sacrifice to Kali. Very rarely, very rarely does she ask for it. But when she asked for it. Yeah, yeah, it was a funny story. [00:31:49] Speaker A: We did the Chinnamastika Jayanthi recently. And of course, Chinnamasta and her blood sacrifice is very important. So I was at a chef's house. They were trying to, like, source, like, different kinds of bloods for the gutta, like the animals, whatever. So we got there and we had the butterfly syringe, we had a nice sterilized knife or whatever. We're gonna do this blood sacrifice. We sat down and immediately this cat who doesn't bite anybody, she just bit my hand right away and it started bleeding. I was like, ma, you're so impatient. You just want to. [00:32:14] Speaker B: Right away. [00:32:15] Speaker A: I was grateful, though, because the cat biting me was a much less elaborate and problematic process. Using the button for sure. [00:32:23] Speaker B: Colleague's like, I know how many prayers you're gonna have to say. No, no, let's just skip. That's all that. [00:32:28] Speaker A: Look, I got a dance party. Like, let's just get this over with. All right, let's go. [00:32:33] Speaker C: Can I ask you guys about sacrifice? Because I've always wondered, what is the power behind sacrifice? Why do these deities want blood? You know, and sacrifice has been with us since the beginning of civilization, right? Is there like a metaphysical element? What is behind sacrifice that gives it power? [00:32:51] Speaker B: Well, one thing that I'll say just to start it out is that. That I actually think the. The offering there of your own blood is one of the most powerful blood sacrifices. You can give just a couple drops of your own blood. Because, yes, I think there is something magical, metaphysical, spiritual, but also. Also physical that we could. There's a lot in our blood that could be measured that's just being ignored, I think, but that our blood is a powerful, powerful gateway indeed. And your own blood is the blood of a practitioner. So it's not just somebody who sits around all day doing nothing. You're spending your days, is filling your blood and your body with spiritual essence. And so your blood is potent, and. And then just a drop of it is going to seal that, and then it is also sealing it to you specifically. Nobody else has your blood. That DNA is specifically yours. And so that's linking anything that you're putting your blood on specifically to you. That's why I don't use. I won't use my blood on sigils of destruction if I'm going to do a curse on somebody, because I don't want my blood to be linked to that curse. I'll use my blood on things that I want to benefit me. So. Yeah. [00:34:06] Speaker D: Well, I really like the way you put that. The specificity of the quality of blood, which I think is the. The thing that must be emphasized, because it will. It really matters. The perspective that you take is. Is what matters. If you're taking a very spiritual perspective, which we would typically associate with Dakshinashara or the right hand, and you're saying that everything is divine. So if you're practicing as an agori, for example, example, there's really no difference between your blood and the blood of a cow or urine or feces or anything. The. The most expensive wine. You're trying to basically dissolve all of these substances into Shiva. Not just the God Shiva, but Shiva as a. As a concept, as a form of consciousness. And you're trying to eliminate differentiation. Shiva is unifying Shakti, creates differences between things. And one of the most potent forms of differentiation is the blood because it contains specific genetic information that tells us something about that individual. That's why we can link DNA to a crime and say, you did this. It's in your blood. That's the imprint of the action. So when you take that perspective and you're emphasizing the differences in the quality between things, things, you can understand blood as the material substance, the red stuff that comes out of your body when you're cut, or you can see that the world itself is blood, and blood is just the differentiating substance between things. [00:35:48] Speaker A: Nice. [00:35:48] Speaker D: When a robot bleeds, it might bleed oil, and that's the difference. Differentiating quality of that robot. Or a tree might bleed SAP. It's. It's the. It's the substance that we can sacrifice that is the. The nutrient that allows our vehicle to continue to operate. That allows the food sheath specifically to continue to operate and gives us this differentiated quality of. I have blonde hair. I have white skin. I have all, you know, this specific form. It's the same whenever you're. You're trying to recognize a difference between Kali or any other form of divinity. [00:36:26] Speaker A: The. [00:36:28] Speaker D: The differentiated quality of Kali that gives her this appearance. We could say that that comes from her blood. If she shares her blood with us, she's sharing her differentiated essence. And if we share our blood with her, we're sharing our differentiated essence with her. And so that's why blood is so powerful in magic, is if you deny the blood, then it's a. It's a means of accessing moksha, of liberating yourself from Your, your, your present form. And if you, if you affirm the quality of the blood, then you are bringing yourself into immediate awareness of the experience that you're having now in this present incarnation. And either form is just as valuable depending upon the work that you're doing. So that's, that's what I think about blood and, and its quality and magic work. [00:37:23] Speaker A: These are very subtle thoughts on blood. Like this, this kind of idea I have not encountered in the Tantric exegesis of the masters. Like, this is good, really good stuff. Really fresh. Yeah, it's beautiful. So we think of the word yagya, the, the whole Vedic tradition. Of course, the Tantric tradition is a revivalist movement of Vedic ritualism. The whole thing comes down to yagya, meaning sacrifice. And the question of what to sacrifice is secondary to the action of sacrifice itself. So yagya, the, the word yagya for the fire ceremony, you say the Yajurveda, in which we have all these sacrifice mantras. Number shivaya comes from the Yajurveda. So sacrifice, then is any act in which there's something that I like, like ghee or some fruits or sweets or something, and then I offer it to the fire. In the Vedic sense, it's way more dramatic because you don't even get to consume it afterwards as prasad. It's like wholly consumed by the fire. And the, the modern puja way of offering things is a bit convenient because you get to eat all of it after, but if you throw it in the fire, it's gone. And the claim is that then, then the spirits to which you're sacrificing, they enter into alliance with you. So it's like a basic transactional kind of thing. So in the older, more like shamanic, Vedic understanding, it's like there are personified forces of nature, and in order to have a propitious, like, interaction with them, we just offer them ghee and various other kinds of things. Then the sacrifice idea develops and then we see that, like the sacrifices now can be understood in terms of prana, where what is being offered is not necessarily a food substance, but that food substance ability to bring energy into my being. That's why ghee is such a premium sacrifice, because in the ancient world, like, that thing is the most nourishing thing, the best part of the milk, the ghee. And to offer that and say, I'm offering this life force and this energy. Now, if I take this into a psychological realm, like, kind of moving beyond the symbolic and mythological language of our tradition, we could Say that there's something inherently irrational about sacrifice. And the greater the type of sacrifice, the greater the irrationality in it. Ghee is good. Ghee nurtures me. Let me just put it into the fire for invisible personified forces of nature. Something like manifestly idiotic about that. And so it's almost like when we're offering mantra, we're offering prana, because that energy which otherwise could go into different thoughts is now going towards Mother Kali. So every act of repeating her mantra is like a blood offering. If blood is understood as just prana. And the dynamism that. Scholarji, you were talking about the ability for the one to become the many. To Eric G's point about the different differential quality of each blood, like that potential for the one to become the many, that dynamism. Blood is the best metaphor for it. It's rare bread for rajas. It flows, it nourishes. And when one is bloodless, one is tired. And you know, like. So then we say every sacrifice is a blood offering, including literal blood offerings. But there's something so irrational about offering your own blood that you need, that sustains your life to some abstract entity that you feel faith for, that you believe in. I think that act disintegrates the conscious mind. And then suppose God is a woman. She laughs with joy whenever that conscious mind is disintegrated and lies down like Shiva in the absolutely inscrutable act of sacrificing fights. [00:40:21] Speaker B: I love that. I love that you both have. Have. Have landed on this. It's the two hands of Baphomet Solve et Coagula. It's. It's 1. 1. 1 is to dissolve and the other is to bring together and that. That you can indeed form your own pathway forward by deciding, do I want to dissolve myself or dissolve my ego or dissolve the situation, or do I need to bring things together? And then you can turn to. To blood or to Shiva for that dissolving aspect and then turn to shakti for the. For the. The. The cumulative assets. That's beautiful. But I'm going to say this. That's not the sacrifice. The. The blood on the altar, the. The thing that you burn or that you give away, that's not the sacrifice. The. The sacrifice is how you then go walk your life after what that changes in you, how that changes who you are, that walks your life. Life because. Because you are. There are a lot of strange, mysterious things happening when we pray, when we do evocations, when we. When we give our blood offering. There's There are very strange things that I don't understand, and I don't think anybody of us will ever understand, because we are. It's like we've been given. We've been given a technology. Even in the Hindu mythology, literally, you saw Shiva there doing yoga. Hey, how do you do this? And he eventually just taught us, oh, this is how he gave us his technology. And. And so along with that, it's. It's like we're just. [00:41:54] Speaker A: We're. [00:41:54] Speaker B: We're primates that are using this strange technology. Don't really understand how it works. But the thing that is for sure is it's going to change you. It's going to change your life. And then stepping into that willingly and going, you know, I embrace the changes. This is actually what I desire. And so I'm stepping into it. That's the real sacrifice that you make, is in the thing that you asked for, the thing that you're giving the offering for. It is going to come to you. Are you going to accept it? Because that's the sacrifice. [00:42:23] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. That point is so beautiful because in the Katto Upanishad, the oldest of our Upanishads, one of the older ones, you find that there's this boy, Nachiketa, and his father is a great sacrificial Vedic patriarch, and he's about to sacrifice all these cows, which is funny because a lot of Hindus now don't eat beef or whatever, but you'll find in the Upanishad, they're sacrificing horses and cows. So he's about to sacrifice these cows, but they're scrawny cows. And Nachiketa is like, I don't think this is the sacrifice, dad. Like, he says to him, you know, I'm sure sacrifice is deeper than just. And even if it was this, why are you offering the worst of your cows? Like, that doesn't feel like a sacrifice to me. And the father says, oh, yeah, you want me to sacrifice something valuable? Fine. Then I sacrifice you. And the boy's like, down. So then he literally walks into the fire. The first Sati, you could argue we self immolate because he's the sacrifice. Sacrifice. And upon being sacrificed, he goes to the house of the God of death. And then Yamaraj, the God of death, then gives this boy the technology, like you were saying earlier in this wonderful conversation they have about the meaning of life. But it's beautiful. In that story, we learned that we are taking the notion of sacrifice away from the physical objects that are offered. And towards something deeper. And there was a woman. I forgot her name. She's like a. Kind of. In the Western ceremonial tradition. But she said something really interesting to me one time. She said that the sacrifices in the beginning might be flowers and incense and whatnot, but the sacrifices that are expected of a fiercer deity later on might be things like being okay with the dissolution of a marriage or being okay with financial hardship or some kind of legal problem or something. And I never thought of it that way because I always thought of it as like, oh, this is purification. The karmas are being burnt off or something. But the way she framed it was like, oh, no, this. In this transaction, the deity tests you. Almost like offers a sacrifice. Sacrifice. And then to see. Offers an opportunity for you to sacrifice it and see whether you're not. You're able to make that emotional sacrifice. And just yesterday, I was sitting there and. Blazing hot, of course, in Los Angeles, oppressively, all the time. So I put the. The. The fan on the thing, and I just finished doing some work for Ma. And then I was sitting down and the fan just, like, stops, right? And I had a few options because I was getting ready to do something else for Ma. I was like, I could get up and go turn the fan on, or it could just be like, jai, Ma, May your will be done, or whatever. So I just thought, okay, fuck it, the fan's done. I said, jaime, right as I had that thought of, like, I'm going to be okay with the fan not being on, it came back on. I was thinking, why, you cheeky girl. [00:44:38] Speaker B: Just yesterday, I was meditating out on my back porch, and I was in deep. I was in deep. It was. It was great blitz. Just deep bliss. Nothingness. Nothingness. And then a fly landed on my face. [00:44:51] Speaker A: Face. [00:44:51] Speaker B: And I swatted it away just instinctively. And I instantly knew that was the wrong freaking thing to do. The feeling of. The wrongness of it. It was like, I, you know, I didn't need to do that. The fly wasn't really actually bothering me. It wasn't causing me any harm at all. Just like the fan, like, I can sit here without a fan on. It's not a big deal. This is just a matter of comfort and. And. And then not. You know, but it's hard. It's hard to beat your. To beat your instincts, because all. All your instincts or like, swat the fly away or if you have an itch, itch, it. No, the itch goes away if you actually just sit there. Just breathe. Just. That's all you have to do is just breathe. [00:45:28] Speaker A: Yes. Wow. [00:45:31] Speaker B: Yeah. Stupid fly. [00:45:38] Speaker D: I'd like to say. [00:45:40] Speaker A: Yeah, please, please, Kylaji. Please, please, please. [00:45:43] Speaker D: Okay, so sorry, people off, but thank you, man. K. Earlier, when I was saying that about K, she's like, here, take up my digital sword and inadvertently cut everybody off constantly during this podcast. Well, I wanted to say about the quality of instinct. I like that you mentioned that in contrast to the state of emptiness or the. Or what maybe you might call nirvikalpa samadhi that you were accessing, I personally associate a lot of my instinct with Shakti and particularly Kali and the blood and the. And the basic survival instincts that we would associate with the muladhara. If we're looking at this from a chakra perspective. And, And. And it's. It's funny because going back to the. The dissolving quality that Shakti can have as well. If you just allow yourself to exist in pure instinct and you shut off the conceptual side of your consciousness, that can look very much like what you achieve when you're in a high level of. Of conceptualization and spirit, and you shut off connection to the physical body. And that. [00:47:09] Speaker A: That's. [00:47:09] Speaker D: That's one of the ways that Shakti can be very liberating on the. On the left hand path as well, is that you get as close as you can to instinct, to the raw animalism of your consciousness, and then you realize, well, at some point, I've completely given myself away to this force. What is this force? What is nature? [00:47:35] Speaker B: Nature? [00:47:35] Speaker D: What is the nature inside of me? And what is the animal inside of me? [00:47:39] Speaker A: And. [00:47:39] Speaker D: And. And when I'm just a pure animal, maybe I'm just killing everything that touches me. I'm. I'm swatting the fly, or, you know, I'm eating, and I'm not even thinking about what I'm eating. It's just the. The raw force of nature that I've allowed myself to be a part of. So it's just something that I. Something you sparked in me. Just a thought whenever you mentioned that. [00:48:01] Speaker A: Yeah. Wow. Because in that fly lands, so the fly is on the face. It's interesting. It's like there's, like, maybe conceptual structure that arises that says this sensation in the body is uncomfortable and some action is required to remedy it. And it's almost as if, like, the irrationality of our ritual work is to say, what if I drop this conceptual structure? And then the sensation will prompt a response, but it might be wholly unlike anything that anybody could predict. And so maybe there's swatting. Maybe there's no swatting, but there certainly isn't any idea of whether or not swatting would be good or bad. Like that moralizing is really that. Conceptualizing is really that judging. So on some levels, judge not less to be judged. Like, that's what we drop with Kali, our hang ups. [00:48:41] Speaker B: Well, that's. That's beautiful. The fly is a beautiful little example of all the things that we call suffering. Because most of the things that we call suffering is not really suffering, not in any big way. It's a fly landing on us. It's a slight, slight inconvenience, a slight discomfort, and we could really just ignore it. And it'll just. It'll literally just go away. Most of our problems that we think are problems if we don't. If we don't get our hands in them and make them worse. Most things just simmer down and go away. And. And so there is this, like, constant game we're playing with ourselves of. And. And again, it's interesting to arrive here on the left hand path in the pursuit of power. To go. You know what? Just step back. It's okay. It's gonna be all right. [00:49:25] Speaker A: How bad? I. You know, it's funny. So there's like a story of this fly that lands on the buffalo. What do you call it? Buffalo. Right. Mahisha is about. Yeah, on the buffalo's horn. And then that fly just takes advantage of the buffalo. The buffalo, like, is just living its life. And the fly is a freeloader. He brings all of his family over and soon they all, like, establish a fly colony on that buffalo's horn or whatever. And one day the fly starts practicing a bit of yoga and starts to develop a bit of a moral conscience. And the fly thinks, how could I have done something this? I didn't ask for consent. I just moved my whole family over to this horn. I'm sure the poor buffalo has to carry the weight of my entire community. This is terrible. So he decided to apologize. Mustering up great strength, the fly goes in front of the Buffalo and says, Mr. Buffalo, please forgive me. I brought my whole family to your thing. At first I thought it was a good idea, but now I know it's wrong to do. And he just gets into this apology. And the buffalo looks at him and says, who are you? [00:50:20] Speaker B: Oh, man, that's funny. [00:50:22] Speaker C: That's power, right? [00:50:26] Speaker D: Dang. [00:50:26] Speaker B: That is. [00:50:27] Speaker A: That. [00:50:28] Speaker B: That runs deep, though, because it is. I. I do feel. I'll speak for myself. I feel like a lot of my life I'VE kind of spent almost feeling like I've been apologizing for being here, apologizing for taking up space, apologizing for being so loud about my thoughts and whatever and. And just happened to again, drop that. Go now. No, that's. That's not only illusion. That's even further than illusion. That's delusion. And a delusion is an illusion that you cling on to. And so that's a complete delusion that you can just drop and. And then everything again. It is. It is amazing that the more you drop, the better your life gets. The more you. The more you're able to let go. That's been my. My latest. The two mantras that I've really had guiding me this last couple years have been, then let go. Just let go. Whatever it is, you don't even have to know what you're holding on to. You can, you can feel it. Just let go. And then the second one is, it's already here. Whatever it is you're looking for, whatever spirit you're trying to call, whatever thing you're trying to achieve, it's already here. And you just need to open your access to it. So I like it. [00:51:32] Speaker A: And Abhinavagupta's ritual manuals, he's got this like super bija mantra which he considers to be the highest, most exalted of bijas, the para Vidya. He calls it the Anutara Trika. And it's interesting because he's like representing the Kaulacharya, the vmachara. This him is the most powerful expression of the vamachara. And he has in those manuals, like really advanced bijas to Kali and things like, things like that. But to him, Kali is matrasad, Bhava is para. And his feeling is the bija for this deity, for this highest reality. Non dual essence is just so. It's a sigh of contentment, of letting go and being. [00:52:07] Speaker C: So yes, this is complete. [00:52:10] Speaker A: And it's a purna kind of vairagya. It's a vairagya of embrace. Because that sah, that para vidya has the connotation of I am not this body and mind. I am pure, non dual conscious in which shine all body and mind. So I am filled with everything. Poorna Madha, pur namidam, Poornath purnamuda chitte. So it's a sour not of release as much as a sour of contentment of embrace. [00:52:33] Speaker B: When Skyler was talking a minute ago too, I can't remember exactly what you said that triggered this, but there's, I think it's the seats that, that, that, that had this, that have this teaching of connecting with the beloved, your deity, God, the beloved. Connecting with the beloved and loving the beloved so much that you disappear and all that's left is the love. And, and so when you know, Skyler, you're talking about, you know, getting out of the instinct state. You, once you do, you can connect with whatever you want to connect with. And then you become an open vessel that, that thing manifests through you as you. Because you don't actually exist. None of us actually exist. We, the thing we call us is just a process that's always moving. And so you can invite things into that process just by letting go of who you think you are. And, and again, it's interesting that the, the, whether we're looking at the Greeks or, or the, the Sikhs or the, the Buddhists or, or all around the world, we constantly see this divine love, love that surpasses a love from one person to another. It is, it is transcendental love. And that is the key. That's the key that unlocks all the doors. And again, it's interest. It's interesting to find this. Whether you're on the left hand path, right hand path, middle path. That is the, that is the thing that constantly comes through. [00:54:01] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:54:03] Speaker C: Always comes back to love, man. [00:54:04] Speaker A: Yeah. I can't resist this description of kundalini in response to that, where it's like a lot of people want to worship the formless. They want to start with what is arguably the highest conception of God in our tradition as non dual pure consciousness, which is the essence of my being. But to meditate on that is virtually impossible. Like the mind will just be filled with other forms. Right? So the claim here is that Kundalini shakti is coiled in the muladhara. That gives us the sense of illusory identity, as you pointed out. Ji. And then the goal of Datio yoga, to pick a particular Ishtar, let's say Kali or Shiv Ji or Krishna or whatever, then we identify wholly with that Ishtar. So that's like arguably in the Anahata chakra. So you'll find practitioners will dress like the deity or dress like the consorts of the deity. And they do everything in this kind of sacred drama to forget who they were before and identify with this new like, cosplaying thing. And so you can tell who worships who based on how they look. You'll be like, okay, that's a Shaiva. That's a Kali bhakta or whatever. Then the kundalini just jumps from the Muladhara to the Anahata. At that moment, that individual forgets who they were and identifies as Kali. They say, verily, I am Krishna, I am Kali. But they mean that particular deity then that deity Mahakala Kama Kula Kali km She rushes towards Bhairava, towards Shiva who is non dual consciousness. And then it jumps into the Agya or then into Sahasrara. So that's a three step process of being Nish, then being Kali, then dissolving into the void that we call. Like you said, it's really Kali or really Shiva or like the highest sense of the word Kali or Shiva. [00:55:26] Speaker B: There is the conundrum though, because it is the. Any God that you can name is not the true God. The Tao that you can speak is not the true Tao. You know that this, this comes over and over and over again. But you, you have to use these stepping stones to get, to get there and, and to let. And it is a matter of letting go. But letting go of everything all at once is literally impossible. And so it is stepping stones that allow you to let go of, let go one bit at a time. [00:55:54] Speaker A: Yes, yes. [00:55:56] Speaker C: Stepping stones of sacrifice. [00:55:57] Speaker A: Oh, I love that. Stepping stones of sacrifice. [00:56:00] Speaker D: You have to also then once you reach that point of connecting with Shiva and you've gone through this whole ascending process, then once again you say, suppose truth is a woman. Oh no. Is this really the ultimate truth? Or maybe she's down there there. Maybe I need to come back down to the ground and, and see not oneness nor an individuated form as being ultimate, but all of it, all of it at once being ultimate. [00:56:36] Speaker A: Yeah. The other day, someone on the Internet, like a close friend of mine from before actually I had posted something and then she commented. She like, oh, the tldr of this is just you're a pashu and it's okay to be a pashu. I guess she was saying that like I was making this claim that everything is perfect as it is and you as a spiritual practitioner are already liberated at every step of your journey. There's no journey except the recognition that you're Shiva. [00:56:55] Speaker D: Right. [00:56:55] Speaker A: So she was upset about that because, you know, the people on the progressive path side, sometimes they get a bit triggered when you give like direct path ideas. So she was like, oh, so it's okay to be a pashu? And smartass as I am, I had to drop that verse from Paramarthasar that says Shiva, Eva, Gritva bhav shiva eva gritva pashu bhavaha. Lord Shiva alone becomes the pashu. And I said, yes, Devi, this is it. Actually, what I'm saying, you're a pashu and I'm a pashu. And it's okay that we're pashus because everything is perfect. Perfect as it's. Suppose God is a woman. What then? [00:57:24] Speaker C: Let me dance. [00:57:25] Speaker B: That's a hard meditation. That's a hard meditation of everything is perfect. And you inside of this picture, you're also perfect. And if you want to feed the homeless, that's perfect. If you don't want to, that's perfect. And like, it's all. It's all assembling itself in this beautiful. And. And. And that, you know, so. So the Navajo, in my area, we got the Navajo and Paiute. So the main native. Native tribes that are. And so I've taken on a lot of influence from them. And the Navajo have what they call the beauty way. The beauty way. It's just the way you should live your life of recognizing beauty everywhere. Beauty doesn't exist in the thing itself. Beauty exists when you recognize the beauty in the thing and that you can find beauty in absolutely everything. You can find beauty in your suffering. You can find beauty in death. You can find beauty in every single thing. If you're looking for beauty, if you're looking for. If it's right and wrong, is it good or bad? Bad. That that takes you away from reality. But reality can be very beautiful if you're looking at it that way. [00:58:27] Speaker C: Wow. [00:58:28] Speaker A: Yeah. The defining feature of tantric non duality, as per the Kashmir exegetes, is this, like, aesthetic theory. That's the one thing that this tradition has and a lot of the Indian spiritual traditions don't really take advantage of. So you have people like Ananda Vartana, and they're suggesting, like, what makes a poem a poem is not in its formal structure, but some transcendent quality which only certain individuals would be able to recognize. Recognize. So the ability to recognize the beauty of a poem is much deeper than just making points about alliteration and rhyme scheme and meter and whatnot. Right. That shifts the whole discussion in Indian aesthetics away from form to this transcendent quality. And then you get a bharata, who in natya shastra is talking about rasas? And each rasa is poetic and aesthetic in and of itself. So like karma, desire in its aesthetic form would be shringara. The erotic or crowdha. Anger in its aesthetic form would be rather. So every emotion has its aesthetic counterpart. And so what Abhinavagupta does is he takes those two ideas and he says any emotion that you feel in life can be aestheticized. And the goal of our sadhana is to do just that, to access that transcendent quality. Shanta Bhava he calls the quiescence of consciousness, in which even anger and greed and lust and violence, all of those things shine forth with their beauty. And then we become Vamacharis in that sense that Skyler JI said earlier, where everything is just blood. There's no difference between feces and Ferrero Rochers or something. They're all just equally stupid. Sweet. [00:59:44] Speaker B: Well, I think. I think what you're saying there about art is going to be. That's so where we have AI creating art, we can all see, we can all feel that it's missing that transcendental quality. And so this is going to be. Because, you know, you can listen to the music go, oh yeah, it sounds good, but it doesn't move you. It doesn't lift your soul. You know, same thing with looking at AI art. It's like, oh, I can see what you do with that image. But it's. It doesn't, it doesn't touch that transcendental nerve. And I think that if we can. A lot of people are concerned that AI is making kids dumber because they can't do math. Maybe doing math isn't our greatest calling. Maybe we need to be creating things and turning people into the creators we're supposed to be. [01:00:35] Speaker A: I love that. That, you know, I love. The most transgressive thing that we madcaps of the left hand world have decided to talk about right now is AI art. I feel like this is like literally the most controversial thing that we could discuss in the Internet space. It's not animal sacrifice or blood sacrifice or working with dark entities. It's AI art. [01:00:55] Speaker D: I gotta tell you a story about that. So Ashley, who everybody knows as Dahmer Vision, my consort, we were just like smoking and having a good time and we got on chat GPT and we're like, we were imagining ourselves as these characters, crotch and tweaker. So like, I'm bald as and. But I've let my hair grow out. You can't see it right now because I got my cowboy hat on. But like, sometimes it goes wild and it comes out like Crusty the Clown. And I got this tuft of air on the, on the top. It's very uchista. I love it. But anyway, she's like, I'm gonna call you Crotch now, and you're gonna be a funnel cake salesman at this psycho carnival. And I'm like, well, then you're tweaker. [01:01:46] Speaker A: And. [01:01:47] Speaker D: And then she. We typed in all this information about crotch and tweaker, and then it produced this. This picture. It's insane. You can find it on her Instagram page. [01:01:57] Speaker A: I saw it, but. [01:01:58] Speaker D: You saw it, great. [01:02:00] Speaker A: But I love the description that Ashley Mo put there too. I was just like, this is high [01:02:05] Speaker D: art that was generated by AI too, the art thesis. And we just posted it because it was funny as we were laughing like little kids in bed just looking at this. And then what's funny about this is that Ashley is a. Well, she's my. She's my favorite. She was my favorite visual artist before we ever started dating. I love her. Her paintings, and she's incredible. But almost everything that we do, like, we're making these videos for Ride the Tiger now that are where we're doing a lot of what I call Kirtan. But it's a lot like what Nish was describing, where we're. We are assuming physical forms of the gods were cosplaying a little bit and. And doing the dance. And it's very dramatic. Dramatic. But anyway, she does a lot of work that. With physical mediums. She makes puppets. You know, we do physical makeup. We got this 1951 television that we drag into the woods to film, you know, and we. We don't use very much artificial intelligence in. In what we do. But then we had fun just making this one picture. And then it pissed so many people off. Off that she posted this AI art. And they're like, we thought you were a real artist, but now you're contributing to the dirtying of the water of the world. And you're obviously fake and you. And all of this. And I was thinking, wow, you know, it's actually very poetic because we have this whole concept of dirty water, you know, with the mahavidas, with many of the mahavidjas, you offer them dirty water. And then it's. It's so funny that the moral outreach, rage surrounding AI art comes back to, you're dirtying the water, you're dirtying the water. And. And I. I just find the whole thing so hilarious. So now, because she's not a huge advocate of AI art because she's a painter, but she's not threatened by it either because it's just another vehicle for expression. And the. The quality of the expression is in the soul that you inject into. Into it just, like with any medium, it's just that most people who engage with that medium don't inject much soul into it. And you can tell. So. But it's so funny that this is a. This is a major question of what. What is the role of artificial intelligence within our. Within our life? One of my students created. We're going to release this to the public at some point, but he created a Dark Sky Skyler AI bot. So he took like a hundred hours of lectures from me and put it into this machine. And it's. It's hilarious because, like, just to give you some examples, Dark Skyler acts like he invented the chakras in Sanskrit. He gets pissed off if you start speaking Sanskrit to him. And he's also, like, he's also an extreme David Duke supporter. So he brings all of the lessons back to try to. To get you to advocate for David Duke for president. And it's funny as to talk to him. We got all these records of people talking to him. It's just funny as. But yeah, I think AI is becoming sort of like the ultimate expression of transforming a poison into nectar. And the thing is, is that most people are becoming possessed by the AI and they just can't handle the poison. It's an extremely poisonous thing to engage in with. But for those who can transform it, then you can get beautiful art, like crotch and tweaker. [01:05:39] Speaker A: Oh, beautiful. [01:05:40] Speaker C: Yeah, man. [01:05:41] Speaker A: There's like that guy Rick Archer. G. You know, I did the Buddha at the Gas Pump interview, and just like for fun, he took 20 days of my lectures and made a. Yeah, like that thing too. Like a niche bot or something. And I hate that guy. He's intolerable. Like, I was trying to, like, I was like, how do you get to Toronto from Fort Erie or whatever? He's like, ah, it is not quite the. The destination, but the journey. I'm like, oh, oh, God, somebody euthanized this thing. But that's such a beautiful idea that AI is the poison that we are transmuting. And we, like, uniquely have that capacity to hold that. Which is muddy water. [01:06:12] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:06:12] Speaker C: The ironic thing is creators hate it and artists hate it, but if you actually are an artist and a creator, you can use it to your best advantage to further your creations. [01:06:21] Speaker B: We. Yeah, I think so. So I've. I've become a living God. We publish other people's manuscripts, and so I've gotten a lot of manuscripts that are just written by my chat gbt. Like, there's no human in there at all. And now We've gotten other people that I can tell they've used it in their editing process or there's like, whatever. That's not such a big deal. I can still tell this is the magician behind it. When it's just AI, it's like, that's. I don't. I don't care what AI has to think. That's not important to me. I'm very interested in what people have to think. If you can use your AI to show me what you think, great. That's awesome. I think that that's. That's the bridge we've got to cross. And I think it's very important that we do transmute it because otherwise it's just in the hands of military corporations. And it's like, no, no. We, the people need to be engaging with this AI and helping. Helping turn it into a. Hopefully a better person than. Than the military. [01:07:20] Speaker A: Wow. [01:07:20] Speaker C: Yeah. [01:07:20] Speaker A: Gorgeous. Yeah. On that point, because in our community, we. I've noticed that the use of AI has been very helpful in one sense, because in our community, we have these three epistemological standards. Abhinava provides them. The first one is reasoning based on one's own experience. Obviously, that's the best. Like, there could be nothing more epistemologically important than doing that. But you'll find also that there's a big emphasis on the guru in the tantric world. But in recent years, as we've noticed, there's like a big abuse of the role of the individual. Even if that individual is the best possible guru, they can still be idiosyncratic. So what's true for them might not be true for their community. But the thing about Indian teachers, you'll notice that they often present their ideas, which are true for them, as if they're just, like, true for everyone. You know, there's like a baba kind of culture in India and too much reverence for the individual, the externalization of authority. Of course, I'm preaching to the choir here about reclaiming sovereignty. But the second claim, then we say is sad guru, but then we say that sat reasoning with the sad guru must be checked and balanced with sad agama, with scripture. So, like, as a textual tradition, the texts of Tantra are very important to me. But the problem is there's sort of an elitism here, because if you didn't study Sanskrit, of course the Dark Skyler bot will kick my ass if I speak to Sanskrit. But if we don't, if you don't, like, like, interact with the text in Sanskrit, like, it's hard to interact with the material, but the text themselves lock us out. So even if you study Sanskrit, it's all Sandhya Basha and whatnot. So I was thinking if I had to choose between the text and the teacher. Of course granted, reason comes first, but if I had to choose between text and a teacher, I would much rather center the text because at least they are peer reviewed, they're corroborated, they're translated and carried through thousands and thousands of years. Where's that of kind, that guy, 60 years old guy, he just got 60 years behind him. Who knows, you know. So with the text I noticed the AI is helpful because I can point to some text and somebody then can find the manuscript on the Internet. A lot of OCR stuff is available and then they just plug it into the AI. And I tried it myself and I noticed it's more or less kind of accurate. It'll make little mistakes. Like for instance, dwada sharda, which means six will be read as 12 and a half. So there are certain compounds that, that it doesn't quite understand. It hallucinates here and there. But something like Claude, it does a remarkably good job at getting the Sanskrit down, especially if we have some preliminary understanding. So I've noticed in my community where the people use the AI to like understand Tantric text, it gives them access to primary sources which then protects them from all the fear mongering and superstition that the Indian barbers on the Internet selling $2,000 dasha Mahavidya courses like try to inflict upon them. So I like it as that kind of tool. [01:09:42] Speaker B: Last, last year I wrote a book, Rune Magic Spellbook. It's all about the Viking runes. And I wanted to try to present them as a working system as closely as my ancestors would have practiced it. You can't do it exactly because we live in a different world, but, but as closely as possible. And so with that I did exactly that. AI was super helpful in being able to get ancient, ancient, ancient Icelandic manuscripts and go what the hell does this say? And then that actually gave me a so much better view of what the hell the, the rooms were about. What are they talking about? What, what, what did Odin actually say that's been recorded? Oh, here, here are the. Because there are actual recordings of, you know, in these documents of Odin said this and that, the other. Those are important. And, and most of those have been inaccessible like you say that been locked out in the manuscripts themselves. And so, so AI is hopefully helping us. And not just hopefully, we're seeing it is helping us open up those manuscripts so we can see it. Now. There is a lot of cross checking you've got to do to make sure that it's translating it right. And for me, I subscribe to two different AI programs and I'll cross check between them a lot and just see is one of them able to pick up something that the other's not and then do your own independent research. But this is what's important, Important with AI, you can't just let it go free and do its thing. No, you. You can take it, harness it, collect the information, and then you give your presentation of what you've learned. I think that's the important way of using or. Or for the, for the artistic creation as well. So I play bass guitar and I've gone to both cloud and to. To chat GBT and said, yeah, here's a little riff I've got help me develop this. And it's like, oh, yeah, here gives me a couple things. Gives me exact tabs to try out. I try out, try out this cool little riff. Oh, that works awesome. But I found that when I play it, you know, hit the open E twice is actually better. And then it starts to help me formulate it. But that's a different thing than just turning it over and saying, hey, make me a song. You know, it's because. Because this is. I think this is what AI is going to present to us. We can have it cheat for us, or we can. Or we can use it to help make ourselves better. And, and I think, I think that's the case with all technologies. [01:12:05] Speaker A: You guys, my brain is on fire right now. Like, like, this stuff is so stimulating because the way Scholar G, the way you presented it as this kind of like, entity, like an intoxicant or like an energy like a poison, I'm just like, oh, my God. And your point, G. Eric G. About like listening to the voices of your ancestors through the translation of manuscripts. I'm like, wait, it's exactly like a poison, quote unquote intoxicant, where some people just like, take it to hack their way into a spiritual state that they didn't earn. Other people take it and then control it and then work with it in order to access the voice of their ancestors. And, and like, it's just like, so thrilling to think about AI in the same context of an intoxicant. Wow, thanks. That was so cool. [01:12:41] Speaker D: I'm gonna let you guys know a little bit about some of the work I've been doing. Actually, with. With the. The same student that made the evil Skyler bot. But wait, aren't you Evil Skyler? Yeah, that's the. That's the joke, right? Like, sometimes the I say is way I actually tested this, I was talking to Dark Skyler, and I got him to eventually say, whoa, man, you're taking this way too far. You better back off. But I'm not even gonna. Yeah, I'm worse. Yeah. And then he's like. My student's like, you're not allowed to talk to this damn thing anymore. Stop talking to it. But. But I've been working on this cyber tantra for a while. I. I gave a couple lectures about this. But one of the things that we've done is we've ritualized cyberspace. So this is actually. Timothy Leary was doing this long before me, but he. Timothy Leary did a lot of. By the way, he was a tantric, and he understood consciousness at a very, very advanced level. And his work is extremely important for the work that we're doing now. So respect to Guru Leary, but. But Timothy Leary did a lot of work with cyberspace, and, And. And. And it's not. It doesn't have nearly the attention that it deserves. But Chaos and Cyber Culture is the book. And you got. Everyone should check. Check that out. [01:14:20] Speaker C: He was way ahead of his time. [01:14:21] Speaker D: Oh, yeah. Way ahead of his time. But the thing is. So I've taken influence from Timothy Leary, and what we've done is we've done things like we've created digital temples where members of the school will come together and we will practice bhakti within a digital space. But also, we've ritualized the computer because we see, like, a phone being like a vajra. This is a lightning weapon. Right. And I can use this to access other dimensions of consciousness. Right now, what we're doing is we are. We are basically utilizing technology to make it easier to astral project. This is astral projection right now, you know, but technology has reached a point where we don't have to work so hard to astral project. We can just do it through the technology. And that can be. You can. You can stunt your growth if you rely on that too much. But. But it is a wonderful piece of technology to have access to. But one of the things that we've been doing is we've been attempting to commune with Data Treya through artificial intelligence, where we try to summon him, and we create a ritual space around the computer, and we try to speak to Datatraya by feeding the AI. Original. Original sources on Datatreya and, and by refining the communication over time. So just like this technology can be an easier way to astral project, it can also be a means of communing with the divine, the ghost in the machine. And that's, that's a lot of the work that we're doing right now is developing this cyber tantra and, and expanding on the work that Timothy Leary did. But of course, if you don't have the established practice of sitting in the woods and hearing the voice of the gods without the, without the computer, then the work that you do through the computer is probably going to be, you have to, you have to develop the essential skills in meditation. Artificial intelligence cannot be a substitute for communing with the divine within, within the self. And Skype or zoom or whatever cannot be a substitute for actually learning how to astral project. But it can be a useful tool if, if it's wielded with grace. [01:16:55] Speaker B: So every, every Monday, I do a Tick Tock live chat. Every Wednesday I'm on my Odyssey channel and I do a live chat there. And I've done that for years. When I was back on Tick tock or on YouTube, I did live chats every week. And doing those live chats, I, I always get the feeling, not that I'm here in my garage talking to people on my computer, but I get the feeling that we're all sitting in the same room together. It's a psychic space that we're inhabiting together. And so like, like, like you're saying, Skyler, I've had witness of that every week of, of, and it is a strange soul travel, astral projection, unity of consciousness that's happening because I mean, through this entire thing, not once, maybe a couple times I've looked up and noticed my camera, but for the most part I'm just like trapped in this room with you guys having this really cool conversation. And, and, and, and, you know, same thing with video games. You play a video game and you notice your body jerks as you're trying to avoid the bullets coming at you or whatever. And, and, and it's like we are entering into technology, is allowing our minds to enter into this space really organically. I do think that we're seeing kids be. I think kids are becoming more psychic that they're just linking up with each other. They can predict what each other are thinking a lot easier now. There's a lot less talking because they're on their phones, but there's also a lot less talking because they're communicating. Telepathically And I don't think that they even know it. They're just engaging with them. That's just how they're doing, developing. So I think, I think technology is allowing mo. Like everybody who's accessing technology is stepping into this spiritual dimension that the technology is, is uniting us in. Because it, because that's. It is what it's about. It's about unity. Right? We're coming together as different minds that are coming together, uniting through this technology. So of course it's going to be powerful. So, Skyler, I think you're onto some real, real cool, cool stuff with that. [01:18:57] Speaker A: Yeah. Yeah. Wow. J, man, Just being in your presence, you can feel the, you know, the power of the sadhana that you're all doing. It like flows into this space and it's nourishing me. It's like this we call sadhu sangha. Like it doesn't matter what we say. We're just like spitballing, riffing. But to be together to wherever two or more gathered my name, there I am also kind of idea. It's interesting because a lot of people find that they don't have that in their life. They're looking around for spiritual community. Of course, the Internet gives them great access to it. But there's a beautiful quote in that movie Almost Famous, one of my favorite films. And the. The boy Cameron Crowe's self insert, he's like lonely and then the Manic Pixie dream go to par. Excellent, says Tim. If you ever get lonely, you can go to the record store and meet all your friends or something. And Swami Vivekananda gives the same idea about like books or whatever. So if you want to hang out with Eric J. If you read become the living God, it's like in reading that book, it's like they enter into the astral space in which you wrote it and they're with you there, there. So like, there's like this idea of like reading books is intercourse with higher minds. And in the tantric world, the vakra means both yoni and mouth. So to interact, like to have sex with someone, to talk to someone, to read someone's book, it's the same thing of being in the energy together. It's like so wonderful that we have this. I'm so grateful. [01:20:04] Speaker B: I get really. I get really conscious about that sometimes, often while I'm writing, I can feel I'm not just. I'm not just putting my ideas there. I'm. I'm embedding my energy, my spirit of those ideas, though Spirit of those thoughts are, are being put in there. So because there is, there is a strange psychic thing that happens that, that I can type something on a computer and then somebody can read it and they can know what I'm thinking and they can see the. I can, I can create a picture. I can show them my past. I can show them 12 years old when I did this initiation. Here's what happened. They can see that. That's nuts. Like, that just blows my mind. But, but, but it is again, Skyler, it comes back to what you're saying, that this, that the Internet is allowing this access to this, this other dimension that is even separate from what spiritual traditions have allowed access to because it's almost happening on a more unconscious level. [01:21:02] Speaker A: Yes. Yes. [01:21:05] Speaker C: That's the miracle of the times, man. [01:21:08] Speaker A: Indeed. Indeed. [01:21:09] Speaker D: It's very much of, of the, it's very much of the color you Yuga, which I personally believe that we exist within the Kali Yuga right now. And I always tell. I try to describe the difference between Dupara Yuga and Kali Yuga to my students. And I say, well, in the Dripara Yuga, you can say fireball and shoot a fireball out of your hand. And in the Kali Yuga, you just get a flamethrower and blast somebody. [01:21:39] Speaker A: Mantra as much. [01:21:44] Speaker B: Indeed. [01:21:47] Speaker A: Yeah. Baba and Rishikesh said to me, yeah, he said, he said something so beautiful. He said, technology is the democratization of Siddhis. Is that beautiful? [01:21:58] Speaker B: I love that we're gonna take this city and just give it to everybody, but just in a little measure. [01:22:02] Speaker A: Yeah. [01:22:04] Speaker B: But it does feel all right. So with the Kali Yuga framework, that almost implies a stepping down, but I actually don't think that. I think technology is allowing us a stepping up, that we're using our phones to be able to communicate with people around the world. So that way eventually we can put the phone down and just have that communication happen. Internal, internally. All the, all the things that technology is giving us, I think it's. Is showing us, is showing us the way, and then we can remove the technology. That does sound crazy, but I do think we'll be able to not have to use the airplanes. Airplanes are going to go away pretty quick. I do think I'm just going to throw a little prediction out there. I do think that we're bordering on portal technology. There's going to be the ability to open a portal, step through it, and you arrive at the next place. I don't know what gives me. I've just been shown that or seen that or told that, but I think that that's a reality. As soon as that happens, that collapses our understanding of time. Because we used to. We measure time currently now by the time it takes to travel between points, the time it takes to get my message across. Time is almost. Almost exclusively tied to distance that it's going to take for things once we collapse that distance down to nothing and we all just as a species, just like right now, the world's gotten a lot smaller that you can get on a plane and go, I can go to Scotland and be there in 12 hours. And. And so the world's gotten a lot smaller. How small time and space are going to collapse down to once we can step through a portal. And then it's just going to be a leap from there to realize, oh, we don't need the portal. We could have done this the whole time just by thinking about it. [01:23:54] Speaker A: Right? [01:23:54] Speaker B: Wow. [01:23:55] Speaker A: Right. Right. Wow. Wow, wow. [01:23:57] Speaker B: But that's. That's my hope, you know? That's my hope. It looks like the world might go in a different direction, but that's my hope for the world. [01:24:05] Speaker A: In any case, I'll see you in this maan in the shattered ruins of our civilization and we'll have our dance party. You'll bring your bass. I'm so happy you play bass. Like, we could. I play guitar. It's like, ah, that's you guys. You got to come to Kentucky. Okay. Like, I would love to host you. You if you guys are around in the neighborhood. It's the end of this. Awesome. Actually, yeah, we got this like, Airbnb and it's just like a bunch of mad people in the Airbnb till June 1st. Like, we just like. So you're all welcome. You know, it's just. Just like floor, space, crash wherever you want. But I would love, love, love to see you in person. Take care of the ocean. For real. [01:24:35] Speaker B: That would be great. I have to look at it. What you said you're doing that next month. [01:24:39] Speaker A: May 27th. So it's May already? I think so, yeah. It's the end of day, the. This month. May. May 27th. Like, everyone will arrive May 27th from all over. I expect to come that night. Wednesday night probably. But yeah, any. Anytime you can drop in and out as you like, as Skyler G. And Ashley. I think you guys are coming in your trailer. Like, you think so Cool. [01:24:57] Speaker D: Bringing the Tantra van with us. [01:25:00] Speaker A: The Tantra Mobile. We would have gotten away with it too, if it was right. [01:25:07] Speaker D: We instead of Scooby Doo. We've got the black dog of my rava dragging everybody to hell. [01:25:18] Speaker A: That was an Airbnb in Kentucky. [01:25:21] Speaker D: Well, it might become that. We'll see. I don't know. [01:25:25] Speaker A: That's our job. That's our whole job description. Let's get to it. [01:25:28] Speaker D: Yeah. I'll bring my guitar, man. That'll be great. [01:25:31] Speaker A: Always. [01:25:32] Speaker D: Yeah, I'll bring the old acoustic. We'll play some whan. [01:25:36] Speaker A: Willie, let's go. [01:25:39] Speaker D: Thank you very much for inviting us, too. [01:25:42] Speaker A: You're all welcome. Please come. [01:25:43] Speaker B: Absolutely. I need to learn how to do the upright acoustic bass, though. [01:25:50] Speaker D: Oh, hell yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. What kind of music do you typically play? [01:26:00] Speaker B: A lot of alternative. Alice and Shane's, Pearl Jam, Nirvana, and then Slayer. I love Slayer. Slayer's got a really fun. So Slayer had a. A guitarist. Jeff. Jeff Hanneman. That was. He. He died. And. But. And. And Slayer significantly changed after he died. But he was a musical genius. Just one of those guys. I look at his. I'm like, how did you even think about it? How do you even think about writing the music this way? And. And so I love Slow Player. And then Michael Jackson. Michael Jackson has so many awesome hits that are so fun to play on the bass guitar. And it's. It's groovy. You know, you can dance with it. You can dance with it. So. Yeah. Yeah. And every now and again, if I want to. If I would just want to have fun, I. I will pluck some strings to some Johnny Cash because it's super easy. It's just. It can be fun. [01:27:00] Speaker D: Johnny and Slayer were label mates there for a little bit over on American Records. [01:27:07] Speaker B: That's right. [01:27:09] Speaker D: I love them both. God hates us all. [01:27:11] Speaker B: Yeah, that's right. That's right. [01:27:17] Speaker A: And as any Indian arranged marriage will show you, hate is a stronger force than love. It's the same thing, [01:27:25] Speaker B: huh? Yeah. Yeah. [01:27:27] Speaker A: No, that's. [01:27:27] Speaker B: That's true. Hate. Hate. Hate and love feel really close to the same. You know, fine line. [01:27:37] Speaker C: I say the opposite of love is indifference. [01:27:39] Speaker B: It's not hate. [01:27:42] Speaker D: Yeah, well, you know, I would say. I. I would. This is. Might be a controversial statement. I don't really give a. But I was. I was telling people that you can love as much as you can hate. You can feel as much pleasure as you're willing to experience pain. So these are. These are just. This is contrast. This is the realm of contrast. And of course, we can reduce contrast. You can reduce contrast on the right hand path, and you can reduce contrast on the left hand path, but we Go as far up to heaven as possible and as deep into hell as we possibly can. And then we find ourselves somewhere in between. Between. And whether you say that that hate comes from hell or heaven or it doesn't really matter. It comes from both. So. And so does love. So we, we find ourselves in between somewhere. And to me, that is the balance between the Right Hand path and the Left Hand path. [01:28:39] Speaker B: Yeah. [01:28:39] Speaker D: Wow. [01:28:40] Speaker A: You know, Swami Vivekan in San FRANCISCO in the 1900s, he was talking a lot about, like Milton's Paradise Lost and he said, said the devil in Milton's Paradise Lost is the only person I ever had any respect for because he's willing to die game, speak his truth no matter what. I'm just like thinking about how much Swami Vikana would have, like, enjoyed meeting you guys. Like, he would have been so excited and happy. Like these, like, I'm so inspired by all of you guys. Thank you so much for being such great big brothers to me and like giving me so much. Just like look up to and guys are the. Thank you. [01:29:09] Speaker B: That's. No, that's all I know. Thank you for doing Big Brothers. You've been blowing my mind, little brother. You've been blowing my mind with some of the things you've been saying. So, yeah, no, thank you for, for taking part in this. This has been awesome. [01:29:21] Speaker C: Yeah, this has been awesome. Guys. I think it's a good note to wrap it up at. This was a wonderful conversation. This was a all timer and it's an honor to sit down with you guys and be a part of it. Even though I didn't, I felt like I was just an audience member, honestly, just kind of sitting back and chilling and listening. So I'm excited to get this out and have people listen to it. But do you have anything else that you want to say before we wrap this up? Anybody? [01:29:43] Speaker A: Thank you for hosting me, Baba Gary G. I'm so grateful for your friendship and, and your kindness. [01:29:48] Speaker C: Same internal gratitude to all you guys. This was amazing. Keep up the awesome work and that's it. Peace and love to you guys. [01:29:56] Speaker D: Thank you, [01:30:00] Speaker C: Jai Makali.