Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: All right, well, Amy, thank you for joining me today.
[00:00:04] Speaker B: I'm excited.
[00:00:06] Speaker A: Me too.
So, yeah, getting this thing started, would you be able to give us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Exactly.
[00:00:14] Speaker B: Absolutely. So I'm Amy. I'm based in Portland, Oregon, currently, and I'm a 16 year military veteran. Was in the army and I transitioned into working with psychedelics a couple of years ago after experiencing a really profound case of just healing some things that I had been dealing with for a long time, ptsd, depression, anxiety, et cetera. And loved the transformation so much. And it just piqued my curiosity. The experience piqued my curiosity about psychedelics, the experience itself, but also the benefits of working with them in a therapeutic and controlled setting and made it my career. So I've spent the last few years studying and researching and understudying under some incredible teachers. And now I'm a licensed psilocybin facilitator based in Oregon, and work with other incredible military veterans and first responders that are looking for healing and transformation themselves and run a small practice here in Oregon.
[00:01:12] Speaker A: Beautiful. And in Oregon, it's legal now, right?
[00:01:15] Speaker B: It is. So Oregon was one of the first states to have it become legal, Colorado being another one. We're seeing some incredible developments in some other states as well. But Oregon is one of the pioneering states.
[00:01:28] Speaker A: That's amazing.
Wonderful times we were in.
[00:01:30] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. Very exciting stuff.
[00:01:33] Speaker A: Massachusetts actually tried to do it in the last election and it failed.
It failed. But it was like very close, unfortunately, so not quite there. We're getting there, but got some work to do to change people's minds.
[00:01:47] Speaker B: Yeah. You know, and it's funny, I actually had this conversation with someone recently about why that particular state in general had like just such a close margin. And one of the things, as you mentioned, is just like a re education of people that are in the voting age right now. A lot of us within the voting ages went through the DARE programs when we were kids. And, you know, there's this misperception around psychedelics and things like mushrooms, et cetera, that and how they impact us whether they're safe or not. There's a lot of misinformation. And so right now the big push is just correcting the narrative and helping people to become more educated so that they can vote wisely when it comes on their ballot.
[00:02:27] Speaker A: Yeah. Now, how would you explain to somebody that maybe has an adverse opinion of psychedelics or they just have no idea what the power of psychedelics is? You know, like, what does it do for you and what have you witnessed it do in other people?
[00:02:47] Speaker B: Definitely just speaking from my own experience, I had never worked with psychedelics ever, until I ended up very luckily finding by happenstance an organization that was working with military veterans, specifically in a therapeutic way. I was a little scared at first, definitely nervous. Of course, I had been also through the DARE program and so many other cases where, you know, we've been told that these are bad for us, they harm our brains, they're big and scary experiences and not something to participate in. And so with much apprehension and only because I was using it as a last resort before I wanted to kill myself, I, you know, I tried all the regular SSRI and the way of the va, you know, trying to talk therapy. None of that stuff worked for over 10 years. And so when I got desperate enough to go ahead and just try it anyway, regardless of the risks of what I had been taught and the misperceptions I was under, the experience I had was so therapeutic. It was like 4,000 hours of therapy in one setting. And the experience last four hours. And yet at the end of it and during the experience, it was really just a melting of these heavy issues and heavy baggages that I was carrying around for years and years and years that went away. And so I didn't need to have medications, I didn't need to talk to anyone. It just within my visual experience during the psychedelic journey, things just as, as, as simple as, like my mother wound, my, my mom trauma that I'd had since I was a kid. I had one visual experience where my face and her face were swapping. And almost like the download of it was, we're the same and I need to have forgiveness for my mother and how she raised me because she was just like me and, you know, I didn't need to carry it around anymore. Well, I didn't have to talk to anyone about that. I didn't have to bring up, you know, years and years of childhood trauma. And I didn't have to start over with a new therapist or anything. Just in one visual experience, it clicked into place in a way that talk therapy would have never made me understand.
And so it was a way to melt away those deep seated wounds and instead give me a space to shift my perspective on how I felt about the things that had happened to me. So without pharmaceuticals and without talk therapy and without a crazy amount of time, energy, effort and dollar sign, I was able to just have those things go away. So if someone was to come and sit with this medicine and wonder, you know, what therapeutic benefits it can have. It's really just an opportunity for deep perspective shifts that help you resolve the root of your traumas without ever needing to talk about it or spend money on it.
[00:05:39] Speaker A: Powerful. Yeah, well spoken. I was going to try and add something to that, but I don't think there's anything to add that's, that's a perfect summary of what psychedelics do. So yeah, it's essentially we have like hidden layers of ourself, these deep rooted trauma, as you said, and psychedelics, more specifically psilocybin. Is that what you're speaking on? Kind of.
[00:06:05] Speaker B: So I originally the first time I worked with psychedelics it was MDMA and psilocybin in the same sitting. And then a few days later I worked with Bufo5MEO DMT as part of a retreat over the space of a week. So there was a lot of preparation that went into that. I did eight weeks of preparation before going into that experience.
And so just in case anyone is curious, this isn't something that you just like jump into. There is some preparation work and there is medical screening that needs to go, you need to go through before you do it to make sure you're medically safe. But once you've been cleared and you're good to go and you've done the preparation work, that type of experience over the course of a week is, is one of the most beautiful ways to dive into this experience.
[00:06:46] Speaker A: So it allows us to unlock things like deep rooted trauma, deep rooted things that we, we hold in our unconscious that we weren't quite able to do on the regular without the psychedelics is what you're saying.
[00:06:57] Speaker B: Yeah, I think for me, you know, I had tried literally everything, I mean, you name it.
EMDR, I had done TMS, the transcranial magnetic brain stimulation, talk therapy for 10 years. I tried SSRIs, SNRIs, I mean, just all kinds of things and nothing worked. I mean it was, I was worse off than when I had originally started trying to get help and I was becoming more and more hopeless and I only ended up going towards something like psychedelics because it was like I was on my last leg. If this didn't work for sure I was going to kill myself. And I did it just as kind of like a last ditch effort. The fact that it worked in just one session brought me such relief, such a profound perspective shift on life, on my deep seated childhood traumas, et cetera. That's the key marker for me that made me just be so fascinated about this and want to be a champion for others to experience it. Also, it really went to the core of all of my wounds.
Feeling unloved, feeling unworthy, feeling disconnected, my separation from my family. It went into things that I hadn't even been thinking of.
It didn't even bring up anything that I was dealing with in the last year. It went all the way to my childhood and went to the root of where all of my issues with self love and self worth generated from. And so that I probably wouldn't have walked that path with a talk, you know, a therapist doing talk therapy. It just went straight to stuff that I wasn't even consciously thinking of. And so, yeah, it's got a pretty magical way of working within your system.
[00:08:44] Speaker A: Definitely magical.
[00:08:45] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:08:46] Speaker A: Magic mushrooms.
Yeah.
Now, powerful words. They literally just saved your life. You know, that's very powerful, heavy stuff, but I feel it too, and a lot of other people do as well. You know, these things are literally life changing and life saving.
Now, what is the formula, would you say, to approach the psychedelics with. We've all heard set and setting. I can imagine. Do you have like a specific set and setting that you would recommend?
[00:09:17] Speaker B: Absolutely. I. I couldn't agree more that details matter when it comes to doing something like this. There's a common way that will work. You know, if you're doing it under the table, people will grab some mushrooms, go home to their living room, maybe throw some music on and take them. And while that may work out for some people, that probably won't work out so well for other people. You can end up having a really bad experience. And there are a few things that drive a factor of whether you have a safe and well catered experience or one that can be really hard, scary and out of control, maybe even.
And some of the biggest determining factors are just one, the understanding that if you're working with psilocybin, it heightens every single one of your senses. Your sound, taste, smell, touch, you name it, everything's heightened. Any emotions you're feeling are going to come right to the surface. And so things like sirens, car sounds, doors shutting and opening, people speaking, the wind, the weather, whatever, all these sounds, dogs barking, that can literally shift the visions that you get in your brain. It can influence what you're seeing and what you're experiencing. So set and setting, it couldn't be more important. Like, you need to have a controlled environment, try to reduce outside noise, in some cases, light. Some people have a really hard time with bright lights.
In some cases, you know, it Might be important for you to wear an eye mask so you can reduce the external senses and just really go deep within.
You'll want to make sure that you have a trip sitter if possible, to keep you nice and safe. Make sure you've got water electrolytes. You know, you can be very unsteady on your feet, so you can trip, you can fall.
You know, there's all kinds of factors that will play into how your experience goes.
And so set and setting when you work with especially someone who's like licensed at like a licensed service center. Those service centers are designed specifically to create a really comfortable environment for you where you've got someone watching you, you're safe to kind of be and do what you need to do.
You know, you can have a great curated playlist playing for you because even music, you know, some people might think I'm just going to put on my favorite songs. Well, you, you might find when you're in psychedelic medicine, your perception of that song is probably going to be different than when you're in a sober state. If it's a really chaotic song, like, you know, a Bohemian Rhapsody as an example, that might not be the best song to be playing while you're under the influence of psilocybin because it's so chaotic and big and you're going to be visualizing things that are influenced by the things that they're saying in the song. So the energy, the intention, all of all of these factors play into how well your experience is going to go. So for me it's curating when I work with my clients, a very peaceful, calm, neutral environment where we're reducing as many of the external sounds as possible and creating a safe container that's got an eye mask, water and electrolytes, a couple snacks that are great on hand just in case, maybe a journal so you can write some notes. But holding that safe space where they can process in a very peaceful space, safe environment.
[00:12:31] Speaker A: Beautiful.
It's all about the vibes, right?
[00:12:36] Speaker B: Setting the right vibes about the vibes for sure.
[00:12:41] Speaker A: Now I'm just curious, how would one, because I don't know anything about the process in Oregon. How would one go about getting a session?
[00:12:47] Speaker B: Yeah, so very simply. So Oregon does a fantastic job of ensuring, regulation wise that we are making meeting all the needs in terms of every single person that comes through, where they're at. So if they have medication issues, if they have health issues, whatever. We do a really thorough job screening. So there's some paperwork that you fill out and it's reviewed to make sure that there's no contraindications with medications if you have any ability or ambulatory needs. So if you need help like some people have, you know, feeding tubes or different needs where they need help consuming the psilocybin or maybe they're in a wheelchair or something like that, we put together a whole holistic portion plan of supporting the individual coming through.
In some cases it might be you might need to titrate off of certain medications. So we'll give recommendations to talk to your medical professionals where needed on certain factors that you might fill out on the form just to make sure you're medically safe. That's like the number one is, is, is safety. And then once you fill out all that paperwork and you're medically cleared to move forward. There is a requirement in the state of Oregon to do a preparation session. So you'll meet with a facilitator, you'll have a preparation session, at least one in some cases. Some facilit offer multiple. In my case, I offer four prep sessions before you come. And each facilitator is different. So it's great to screen your facilitator and see if you're a good match. Some people cater more to one thing or another.
You know, there's people that cater specifically to women or men or military veterans or first responders or, you know, different things, different types of experiences that they may be trying to focus on. And when you come after that preparation session, it's going to be a six to eight hour journey at a licensed service center. Those service centers are regulated, so you know you're going to get an exceptional quality. Psilocybin, it's going to be lab tested, it's going to be grown under licensed conditions. So you know that the quality of the product that you're consuming is safe and effective. And you'll be in a supported environment where all the accoutrements to keep you comfortable and safe are there. So we're going to have beds, blankets, pillows, playlists. We're going to have really peaceful environments where I serve. We actually have like a projection room where there's nature sounds. And when you go in the room, it's a very immersive experience where we play really cool footage of like rivers and forests and things like that. So it's a little bit more great for the visual appeal for those that decide that is a nice experience for them. And then the second part to that is integration. So Oregon also requires a minimum of one integration session where you're going to get the ability to process and to have accountability and support to integrate the experience that you have. Some would argue integration is probably more important than the actual journey itself. And so with Oregon's rules that they have, they're. They're well placed to ensure that they're getting support after the treatment as well. So some facilitators will offer ongoing sessions. In my case, I offer six. I don't think one is enough, I think, you know, for new habits to form and things like that. When you're really trying to use this as a. As a chance to change your life and for the better, having someone support you for at least six weeks to develop that new. Those new habits and those new routines, that's what I offer.
So you get a nice bunch of support while you're in this really precious neuroplastic state after your session.
[00:16:11] Speaker A: Awesome. Now, is it very popular right now?
[00:16:15] Speaker B: Yeah. So there's. There's quite a few people that we work with every single month just at this one service center. There's several just in Oregon alone. I mean, there's again, a couple of states that have licensed service centers at this point, but they're all, they're all really busy and there's quite a lot of interest, especially with the publicity that psychedelics are getting at the moment from, you know, podcasts like Joe Rogan, your podcast. You know, there's a lot of great podcasts out there talking about this incredible work that's being done in these new modalities that are reemerging that were hidden for a long time from our society.
You know, there's a lot of films coming out. Netflix has a new show called Waves and War that talks about ibogaine and some other modalities as well from organizations like Vets.
There are books and other shows, how to change your mind, which is also on Netflix by Michael Pollock. And there's so many incredible people talking and championing these efforts. So we're getting a lot of inquiries from this beautiful marketing work that's happening, giving hope to so many who have been trapped in the western medical system with psychic. Sorry. With pharmaceuticals for a long time with no relief. So for those that are, you know, treatment resistant to the standard way of working with depression and anxiety and other factors, this really has been a beacon of hope for so many and the words getting out there. So we are very busy at the moment.
[00:17:40] Speaker A: Yeah, it's happening.
[00:17:41] Speaker B: It's happening. There's wait lists that are over a year long for some of the nonprofit organizations at the moment. So, yeah, yeah, we're definitely getting a lot of interest.
[00:17:52] Speaker A: Hmm.
That's a good thing in terms of interest and that it's accessible. But it's also not a good thing that people have to wait a year.
[00:18:00] Speaker B: Correct? Yeah. And so one of the reasons why people are having to wait at the moment is cost.
You know, these are not, unfortunately, inexpensive things due to the fact that they're still Schedule 1 federally. So in order for the states to run some of these programs, the licensing programs and things, these are funded directly by the people consuming the product.
And so just in Oregon alone, as an example, just. Just to get a psilocybin license to be a facilitator, you're going to have to go through a set program. There's. You get to choose one school out of a short list that Oregon has approved to offer education on psilocybin facilitation. Those programs are sometimes 10 to 20 to $30,000. And then to get your license, you're going to be paying around 2,000 to $3,000 for two licen licenses that you have to hold. To be a psilocybin facilitator, and then to have a psilocybin experience, you have to be at a licensed service center. To have a licensed service center, you have to have appropriate zoning, you have to be approved by the city. You have to Pay fees over 10 to $20,000 just for the license annually, by the way. And so those costs trickle downhill. And then on top of that, the psilocybin itself is taxed. And all of the programming, all of the regulation staff and the programs by the Oregon Health Authority, those are all funded specifically by the facilitators and the service centers. So again, costs roll downhill. So for somebody to come and sit and have a psilocybin experience without an extensive prep or integration program, just the day experience itself can cost $1,200, $5,000 just depending on where you go. And so it's incredibly expensive, unfortunately. And one of my goals of talking about this is when we are able to bring awareness to the appropriate legalization of it where it's not schedule one anymore, we're going to be able to help reduce the costs and find funding in different ways to make this more accessible for people. That's why these nonprofits exist. And these nonprofits raise funds so that veterans in need that maybe don't have 1200, 5000 or even have the ability to fly in, because it's only in a couple states. So people are Having to fly in, go to hotels. Right. It gets very expensive to come and access these treatments. I'm of the school that these things should be free, insurance should pay for them.
It's much cheaper to have an experience with psilocybin or ibogaine or MDMA and have a therapy session with MDMA than it is to send someone to a rehab center where they're 30,000 to $100,000 for a 30 day visit. And those are not proven and you have to keep going over and over and over and over. And so, you know, there's a lot to change in the industry to make them more accessible, but these conversations are helping us reach that goal of making them more accessible.
[00:20:56] Speaker A: Yeah, it's like I'm conflicted because there's one part of me that really loves the idea that it's legal and that there is access for people to not have to fear of going to jail. Right. There's no paranoia around it. But then the cost of it, to me, that doesn't make any sense because we, we all know how cheap it is to grow mushrooms yourself. Just throwing it out there for anybody. Spores are really cheap. Just saying, not recommending anything. I'm just saying.
And to say that it's like 1200 to $5000 for one session, to me, it's like, that's a huge turn off.
[00:21:32] Speaker B: Yeah, and I hear you and I totally agree. The one thing, I'll reframe it for you though, because I do think reframing things is really important.
You know, women can go get a hair appointment for, you know, 400, 600 bucks. They get their full head of highlights done and they're going to spend four or six hundred bucks, sometimes more. If they have extensions, they can pay up to $3,000 for extensions. And you know, the psilocybin facilitators are experts in what they do. And this is like super transformational. Sometimes people only ever need to sit one time. And depression and anxiety they've been hanging on to for their entire life, you know, maybe 40 years, you know, there it's impacting their relationships, their friendships, their ability to work, you name it. $1200, you know, you can, you're gonna justify spending $1200 on a vacation for two days or, you know, a weekend.
So it's like, what's more important to you, you know, dealing with something that's impacting your entire life, you know, for 1200 bucks or a weekend in Vegas. So it's like, you know, it is, it is costly, unfortunately. When you're paying directly out of pocket. And I do hope changes, but it's not just when you work with a professional psilocybin facilitator. It's not just coming to. To get high like, you know, in your living room that you could do on your own there. There's a lot of work that goes into it. Like the. The person sitting with you, you have a trip sitter, they're with you for, you know, four to eight hours in some cases. So that's a whole day of work.
And these people are licensed, educated, you know, and are helping navigate the experience more impactfully.
You know, I. I've done a psilocybin journey on my own before, and I actually probably won't ever do it by myself ever again. There's such a massive difference in the outcome when you have somebody there with you who is able to help you navigate and take care of you and control the environment, the actual experience, you can focus a lot more of your energy on enjoying it and exploring your consciousness and sitting with the visions and things that you're getting. When you're not stressed out or having anxiety or panicking about that noise that you heard. And was it real or was it pretend? You're able to have somebody help you navigate the experience. And there. I can't put a dollar amount on that, to be honest with you, when it's going to do something like stop you from having anxiety and depression permanently. You know, it's all how you frame the cost.
It's definitely worth it, especially if you've been debilitated with depression and anxiety for your whole life. But I agree. I wish it was much more inexpensive.
[00:24:05] Speaker A: And it probably will be as we go on. And there's more businesses, there's more legalization around it. You know, there's just more of that whole industry. Yeah, I think it will be probably cheaper. This is just because this is literally like the first rendition of the industry in Oregon, right?
[00:24:20] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. And I'm sad we're even calling it an industry, but it's true.
[00:24:24] Speaker A: I know, right? Hopefully that's a better word.
[00:24:27] Speaker B: Yeah. No, I mean, I would probably say industry as well, but, you know, my. My heart just aches a little bit because I'm of the. Of the camp that, you know, these things are from the earth and everybody should have access to them. And, you know, I love being the indigenous cultures that have protected, you know, these ways of being and operating for so long. I love that this is a community thing that they do together, you know, they do it in sweat lodges and, you know, around fires and things like that. And it's just been part of their culture for so long, and we're so disconnected from that. I want to get back to that at some point for our society also.
[00:25:04] Speaker A: I know, right? I feel the first time that I ever got really, really high off of mushrooms, took a heroic dose. When I really felt it, we could say I felt like it was an initiation, like a rite of passage. And I felt somehow that rite of passage through lifetimes. Like, I felt like I did it before in some way, or maybe I felt how other people did it in the indigenous times. It was. It was like this.
It was like a turning of the page, right? A very powerful turning of the page, we could say. And I think that's what it was. It was always tied to us in the tribal times. These substances were tied to us. And I think it was an initiation in some way. You know, we've heard of things like the Ellucian mysteries. I think it's to that degree. It's like, you take this, and you get to commune with the gods. You get to be one of us.
You know what I mean?
[00:25:53] Speaker B: I totally agree. And for those listening who may not have heard this term before, the. The mycelial network.
You know, there's a reason that mushrooms have just this underground tapestry of connection in the forest and in the ground and under the soil, and that is a direct mirror of how it works within us. Also, if you've ever had a breakthrough experience with psilocybin as just one example from one of the many psychedelics out there, when you have these experiences, you are plugged into this mycelial network, and your soul is connected to other realms, and you feel and experience yourself as if you're other people. You know, I've worked with hundreds of people at this point and watched. Been honored to watch their journeys and hear their stories when they come out of their experiences or even witness firsthand the experiences they have when they're audible during their journeys. And, you know, I've had people experience themselves in body like they're their neighbor. You know, they came out of their journey saying, I was my neighbor. I felt my. The size and the shape of. Of my body be different, like my neighbor. And so it really raises the question of our experience in this reality, and is it a projection? And are we just all experiencing each other? And, you know, at any given time? And there's. There's. Obviously, we could go down a rabbit hole talking about this, but it's so fascinating to me, this doorway or portal that psilocybin specifically opens up and plugs us into this broader network. And you can really feel that when you're working with the medicine. So, um, yeah, I love this conversation a lot and, and like to think about these big topics and the what ifs.
[00:27:35] Speaker A: Yeah, that's really what it opens us up to, is the what ifs. I like to say it opens us up to the grand mystery of it all. Yeah, right. And you may get some answers along the way, but ultimately it just opened me up to what.
[00:27:49] Speaker B: Yeah, it's.
[00:27:50] Speaker A: It's what is really going on.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: I think, you know, even. Even if, you know, there's a lot of people out there researching this from a scientific perspective right now, you know, there's a lot of data being gathered, you know, and making us have deeper questions, you know, about physics. And, you know, there's a lot of people that think that we're living in a projection right now and, you know, an alternate reality. And there's so many questions that are out there. And even if you don't buy into that or believe that and, you know, and have different thought set, what's really fascinating is it is fun to think about and it is fun to question and it is fun to have these firsthand experiences where you just can't explain it. And, you know, there's. There's just been too many experiences that people have that just don't make sense that a vast number of people are having where all those people can't be wrong. There's something there, right?
[00:28:45] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly.
[00:28:47] Speaker B: And so I do love being at the forefront now of this professional research into it and able to document these experiences with some fabulous organizations like Althea, which does surveys on all of the participants that come through Oregon and Colorado.
And it's really fun to do this mass data collection and just to see what's. What's out there and what it is.
[00:29:11] Speaker A: Yeah, that's the thing, is the times that we are in, the mystery is becoming a little less mysterious.
Science is getting evolved, and that is unprecedented.
[00:29:22] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. There's some great schools right now. I know.
Oregon Health and Sciences University, University of Texas at Austin, Johns Hopkins are just to name three. I know the VA has studies going right now, so there's some really incredible organizations doing some very scientific and incredible work.
[00:29:44] Speaker A: Yeah.
What do you think it opens us up to?
I mean, I think it's just parts of ourself that we can't see. Putting it very, very simply, very simply, it's just stuff that's going on in our mind, in the universe altogether, that it's always there per se, but you just can't see it at a surface level. That's what I think psychedelics ultimately do in a very general sense.
[00:30:10] Speaker B: Yeah. I mean, there's so many schools of thought about what's happening and what's going on. And the real answer is no one knows. Right. These are all just speculations. But, you know, there's some that describe it as lifting the veil into the unseen, where we have all of these other dimensions around us at all times.
You know, our loved ones are. You know, there's a school of thought about when you pass away, they're just on the other side of the. Right here, right next to us right now. But we can't see them because of our perceptions being limited and they're, you know, in this other dimension.
And so there's some schools of thought that say that. There's some schools of thought that talk about, you know, physics wise, that in relation to time, that right now and the past and the present, sorry, and the future, that they're all happening simultaneously. And that when we're in psychedelics, that we're seeing different versions of them or different timelines or different projections or whatever. So there's a lot of different schools of thoughts. I'm sure I haven't even covered a fraction of the theories that are out there, but it is really fascinating to think about what it might be. You know, people will experience aliens where they're non human entities that are talking to them and connecting with them and the images that they see. You know, they've never seen cartoons like it, they've never seen movies like it.
You know, they've never seen drawings like it. So there's no way for their brain to reference something that they've already seen. It's like completely new, completely made up, but it's so real and it's so perf.
And they will have experiences where they're not even speaking, but they're just telepathically connecting to someone or something else. And, you know, there's people who have had experiences where they're told something that will happen in the future and then that thing actually happens. So there's a lot of really interesting experiences, which is why I'm deeply fascinated about this topic, is because it's like so incredibly broad.
There are other podcasts out there that exist. Like one's called the Telepathy Tapes. And their original show was based on exploring the fascination behind nonverbal autistic children who were able to telepathically communicate with each other and their teachers and their parents.
And that show has since transformed into talking about much bigger, broader, incredible topics about the unseen, the other side. And it's really fascinating because even though they weren't talking about psych psychedelics, they've now started to mirror conversations that we're having in the psychedelic community where they're talking about the unseen, the other side, people who have passed away. What happens to us after we pass away?
Our reason for being here in this lifetime. And these experiences are past lives, you know, other dimensions, other realities. And there's this crossover, this intersection where it's like if all these different groups, indigenous cultures, who have different origin stories than we do here in our western world, you know, all these different groups are intersecting at this point of there is another side, there is another dimension, there is another reality. Right. There's something there.
Everyone can't be wrong if we're all experiencing the same kind of thing. And psycho psychedelics just happen to be a tool, a modality that lifts that veil just enough that we can have a peek into it.
[00:33:32] Speaker A: Pierce the veil.
Yeah. See, a contrarian, a materialist, a rationalist would say, you're just making that up. It's just your mind hallucinating. Right. I get that. To someone that doesn't know any better, I understand where you're coming from. You only truly understand when you do it yourself. That's the thing. Like, our words only go so far.
Our words actually don't do it justice at all. But once you're in the midst of a psychedelic experience, as you said, it's real. It's realer than real. That's the thing. It has this essence of, oh, this is it, this is it. And yeah, you just got to do it. Right. You just got to do it in a professional setting, in a responsible manner. You just got to do it. And then you'll truly believe. You know, seeing is believing.
[00:34:21] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:34:21] Speaker A: In that regard, yeah.
[00:34:22] Speaker B: There's some really great organizations that are starting to work with other psychedelics also. So I know we've focused mostly on psilocybin so far, but, you know, there are other types out there that create different experiences, and there's one right now I'm really fascinated with. I haven't tried it yet, but it's hopefully going to happen for me this year where there's a DMT X molecule or product that is being used intravenously in a very clinical controlled environment.
Dr. Andrew Gallimore, I think his name is a British guy, I might have said his last name wrong.
He just recently spoke at the Psychedelic Science Conference. He was just on Joe Rogan. He's kind of making the rounds. They've got an organization, I think it's called Ulysses. I might be getting that wrong. I'm going to feel really bad about getting it wrong if I got it wrong. But you can probably find it just by typing. Dr. Andrew Gallimore DMT. It'll come right up on Google.
And they have an organization where this is a newer compound and it hasn't been studied to the degree that they're studying it. And there's a claim that anybody who sits with this, everyone experiences the same thing which is this contact with these aliens and it's like a four hour extended experience. Most DMT, like you know, BUFO, the synthetic version, they last 15 to 20 minutes. This particular molecule is going for like four to five hours and they all go to this alien space and you know, so there's these really wild incredible stories that are coming out from these experiencers. So to the naysayers I say, you know, don't knock it till you try it.
And if anything, like again, it just raises the question of why. The next question would be if everyone's experiencing the same kind of thing, the question would be, well, why, like where is this coming from? How is it happening? How are we all seeing the same exact version of visions in certain situations? So it's really, really interesting. So a lot to unpack there to say the least.
[00:36:20] Speaker A: Yeah, I mean we're talking to aliens. This is how we talk to aliens.
[00:36:23] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:26] Speaker A: I mean I've never done it, so I can't, you know, I can't speak to intravenous dmt. But the fact that everybody's having the same exact experience talking to these same beings, that's science right there. You're running an experiment and it seems like the experiment is the hypothesis is coming to fruition in terms of being able to speak to aliens.
That. Right, that's a huge rabbit hole in itself. I mean we talked about the healing benefits of, of psychedelics and what it does for our psyche. But then you also add on the layer of wait, hold on, we might be able to speak to other beings.
[00:36:59] Speaker B: Yeah, and maybe I should reframe alien to being non human entity.
But yeah, there are these beings that just are not human. So. And I actually just remembered it's, it's called elusismind.com is the organization. Yeah. So I'll make sure to send you the link after. So you have it. But yeah, it's really fascinating the research that they're doing. They're specifically doing clinical studies right now to understand this more and to get a better data set of why it's happening and how it's happening.
[00:37:31] Speaker A: Imagine if that's it though, that's how we communicate with these other beings, these higher beings, the angels, is just through dmt.
[00:37:38] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah. And, and you know, for those that don't know dmt, it's what we experience naturally. It's already in our bodies and it's naturally what is produced, you know, when we, when we die. And a lot of people also have these experiences when they're in their dream state.
And so there's a thought that some schools have thought around dreaming that it's a DMT experience. And so DMT added to your body can put you in these experiences where you're having like a visual state.
A lot of people also start going down the rabbit hole of near death experiences when they are interested in DMT and how it works in us and how it operates, especially when we're having like, you know, these, these death experiences or ego death experiences during using DMT. Bufo5MEO DMT can make you feel like you're dying. As an example, when you go into, to work with that particular psychedelic. So there's a lot, I'm sure a lot of people are like, well, why would you want to do that? It can be very therapeutic to do so.
And so there's just a lot of questions and you know, interesting curiosities that pop up when you start looking into people's experiences here.
[00:38:46] Speaker A: Yeah, and yeah, there's something actually very powerful about feeling like you're dying and then you make it out on the other side. That's, that's, that's a huge takeaway for me personally from psychedelics is really losing the fear of death. Honestly. I mean, I wouldn't say I want to. It's not like that. And it's not like I wouldn't get out of the way if a truck was coming my way. It's not like that. But it's like just being okay with the whole process that you're involved in, I guess. You know, like the whole, the whole cycle of life and death. You know, it's kind of like it provides this weight lifted off of your shoulders that we seem to be conditioned into from birth.
Right. The fear of death, the fear of hurt, the fear of suffering. Really it allows Me personally, at least, to process my suffering and inevitable demise a little bit better.
[00:39:41] Speaker B: Yeah, I agree. And I'll tell you just my personal experience, getting vulnerable with you for a moment. You know, I had. I'd shared earlier in the episode here that I had wanted to die myself. I was suicidal when I first found psychedelics, and that first week I ever worked with psychedelics, one of my sessions was working with Bufo 5 Meo DMT. And the very first time I sat with that, again, it's 15 to 20 minute experience. I definitely went through the process of feeling like I was dying. In fact, I thought I was dying. When I was in my experience, it was very scary, very hard, very heavy. But within that time, my son came to me and I couldn't imagine life without my son. And I didn't want to die. I actually didn't want to die. And so having that experience of feeling like I was dying for real and seeing the light and seeing, you know, that I was going to die and this was it, I was crossing over, I came out of that experience thinking, what the heck was I thinking? I definitely don't want to die. That's not what's wrong with me.
And so I was able to meet death without actually being anywhere near dying. Of course, physiologically I was fine, I was safe.
But kind of being almost tricked that like, hey, you say you want to commit suicide, okay, well, you're dying now and having that ability to be like, okay, just kidding, no, I don't. I'm just really sad and I'm just really depressed and I need help. And so I was able to cross off suicide from my list. There's no way I was going to do it. And I'm now absolutely the opposite of suicide.
I am thriving in my life and loving my life and pursuing love and pursuing joy. All of the things that I would have never been able to get to had I not been through that experience.
And so it was the safest way for me to experience suicide. And what I was begging for and understanding that's not actually what I wanted or needed.
[00:41:32] Speaker A: Well, thank you for sharing that powerful stuff. Yeah, yeah.
Also interestingly, interestingly enough, psychedelics show us the power of love. And I know that sounds a little corny, but it really is the truth. And it allows one to feel a love deeper than you've ever felt before, this unconditional love. I mean, I'm just, personally speaking, I've felt this unconditional love that it was like this force that just hit me and I never Felt it before in my life. And that feeling that really goes beyond a feeling, it was almost like this like energy that that came into me has never left me to know that that is possible. And that felt realer than real.
That has propelled me through all of my endeavors since then. It's probably been about five years or so, five or six years, maybe even more now. And that one experience of just the love hitting me, man, that's what, that's what I kind of live for at this point. Do you feel that? Have you felt that unconditional love?
[00:42:31] Speaker B: Absolutely. And like you, I hadn't felt that before. And there's one particular experience that's coming to mind. I, I worked with ayahuasca and I didn't have a great childhood. It's where a lot of my issues had come from.
And I didn't experience a lot of love as a child. I definitely didn't know what unconditional love felt like. And I had this fabulous ayahuasca journey with this incredible teacher. And she brought everyone in the circle, in the room into a circle and you know, did a music ceremony and some other things with us. And I had this wave of unconditional love come over me that I had never experienced in my life. Life. And why that's important for anybody to experience and to feel is if you have no reference point in your life for what love feels like, not from your family, not from friends, etc, from romantic partners, and you really don't know what unconditional love feels like, you aren't going to be able to give it to yourself, you're not going to give it to other people, you're not going to be able to have a reference point for it. So psychedelics being able to tap us into experiencing love, the feeling of it for the first time ever, it's now training and teaching you what it feels like and how to access it and if you are paying attention at all. Earlier I talked about the intersection of these interesting other industries like near death experiences and telepathic communication and all these other things. This intersection. When you start listening to these stories from groups that aren't even working with psychedelics, they're not even referencing psychedelics, they're having near death experiences that are nothing to do with psychedelics. And they're having, you know, these non verbal autistic children are having experience that are nothing to do with psychedelics.
Everyone's, they all say the same thing. On the other side of the veil. It's just pure love when you die or when you go to these other realities, even the autistic children, they're. They're accessing and experiencing a place that is just pure love. And so there's a school of thought that believes that when we go into psychedelic spaces and the veil is lifting of this reality into the next one, we're catching a glimpse of that feeling, and we're having those experiences of true, real, deep love. That is the auric field of the other side. That is what exists on the other side of death. And so we're able to start tuning into that channel, which is the other side, which is pure love. And so having again just now, if we. If we don't believe all of that, and you're an acer of that, fine. But just referencing what you just said, if you're, you know, going back to what I also said a moment ago, like, even if you just have a reference point of what love feels like, that will make a profound difference in the way that you experience and move through life and interact with other people. And so that by itself can be incredibly therapeutic to somebody who is angry all the time, hateful. You know, they're that way for a reason. Right. That hurt people. Hurt people.
And so for them to be able to access love and to feel it for the first time with the help of psychedelics, that's a win. And I can't think of a single pharmaceutical drug, you know, besides mdma, that might help you pop into that space.
[00:45:38] Speaker A: Yeah, no way. No way.
Wait, you would classify MDMA as pharmaceutical?
[00:45:44] Speaker B: Yeah, absolutely. Because, you know, it is. It is created in a lab, and, you know, they do prescribe it.
There are, you know, like, especially in the VA right now. It is. It is a prescription when they're doing it under a study.
So it is. It is a pharmaceutical, for sure. It's. It's created not from the ground.
[00:46:04] Speaker A: I get what you're saying. Yeah, it's not from the earth, but. Yeah, that's a very good point.
It's something.
First of all, you see it, you don't unsee it, and seemingly you take with you. I don't know if it happens for everybody. I don't know if it's a given to be honest with everybody, but there's a great potential for that to happen for a lot of people. And a lot of people that I've talked to, they take that essence of unconditional love that one feels is real or than real, and you embody that. I think that's the integration. Right. That might be a lifelong integration. Honestly, I feel like I'm still working on that. Yeah, the embodiment of unconditional love.
[00:46:44] Speaker B: Yeah. So there are two things that are popping up for me as we talk about this particular piece of it. It one is working with psychedelics in general. Let's say that you have a session, it's not a permanent fix and it's not a magic pill. And it's really just a tool to give you a chance to reset and to have a perspective shift.
Real change happens from your effort made in sobriety. So I like to say, you know, I'm a military girl, so sometimes I use, you know, silly jovial vernacular, but I like to say raw, dogging life. You know, the goal is to be able to experience life without any type of upper or downer, right? Alcohol, psychedelics, weed, whatever you want to call it. Like you don't caffeine, right? You don't need to add something to your body to experience life, right? That's the goal. And we really want to enjoy life in the richness and the fullness that it is. And so one of the beautiful things about most psychedelics is that they're completely non addictive. And so, you know, you're able to use these things wisely with a great beautiful intention, to sit with it, have a beautiful perspective shift, integrate it. And the integration is a sober experience that is changing your behaviors. And some of those behaviors might be like, hey, if you've got anxiety driving in the car and you have road rage on the way to work in LA every day, maybe change the songs that are playing on your radio to not be death metal and to maybe have some classical music playing in the car, right? There's some simple changes you can do.
Maybe not consuming 400 milligrams of caffeine in the morning and wondering why you have anxiety and you're annoying those around you because you're so high paced and fast, right?
Maybe it's saying sorry to your spouse for not acknowledging their needs and their existence, right. And not being a loving, present person. And so you have to be willing to do the work. And the question I ask my clients is, how bad do you want it? How bad do you want change?
Because psychedelics will take you to the door, but for you to walk through the door and actually make changes in your actual real life, that's going to be all of the other stuff that has nothing to do with psychedelics. And so psychedelics help you look yourself in the face, but then you being accountable and making those changes in your everyday Life, that's all you, baby. You know, you, you gotta, you gotta really step up and put in the effort to be a better human.
[00:49:16] Speaker A: Amen. That's what it's all about.
[00:49:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:49:19] Speaker A: The embodiment.
[00:49:20] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:49:22] Speaker A: Because I have heard stories too of people we could say getting addicted to the psychedelic journey, the lifestyle, doing hundreds of ayahuasca journeys and psilocybin experiences. And it's like, I don't think that's what it's all about.
[00:49:35] Speaker B: You know, I actually serve people who have, you know, crazy numbers like that or, or, you know, as I'm doing my screening and. Have you ever worked with psychedelics before? When was your last psychedelic experience?
I make sure people space things out. I won't serve people twice in a row so, you know, they've had a psychedelic experience, they've got to wait three to six months. And I need to see some integration work being done. And you know, if you're a facilitator with morals and a moral compass and you're worried about safety and all of that, this isn't a cash cow, you know, let this person keep experiencing it like a tourist of psychedelics, like they're here for a particular reason. And by the way, if you do end up listening to Dr. Andrew Gallimore, you may hear stories about people getting kicked out of actually even being able to experience psychedelics in the other realm. He's got a great guy who is using it just recreationally and the entities stopped letting him come in. He can't even get high on DMT anymore.
So, you know, there's cases like that also that exist out there. And so I, I'm not a supporter of, you know, hundreds. When I hear people have sat 50 to 100 times with ayahuasca, it's like you are not old enough to have been integrating time wise between journeys. And it's reckless, it's reckless behavior and it's addictive behavior and it's, it's not safe and it's just another, it's just another addictive behavior if you're addicted to, to healing in that way and these medicines in an appropriate fashion.
[00:51:09] Speaker A: Yeah, well said.
That's the thing is ultimately we don't need them.
[00:51:13] Speaker B: No.
[00:51:14] Speaker A: Right. And an ultimate absolute sense we don't need them.
It's really all here. That's, I think the ultimate lesson that I got, the overarching lesson that I got from psychedelics is I don't even need the psychedelics. I haven't done them in years, which is funny. Enough, yeah, I'm a huge proponent of them. I haven't eaten mushrooms in I don't know how long now. It's probably been four or five years. Smoke a little weed here and there, I'm not gonna lie. But I haven't gone and dove into the psychedelic experience in terms of like a heroic dose or anything like that. I haven't yearned for it. It's almost like I got everything I needed from it. And what I got from it was, you don't need it.
[00:51:50] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, that's. That's really well said. And. And I'm. I'm pretty similar, you know, I, Even though I work with it professionally, you know, I serve several times a week. Week.
I don't partake. And it'll be once, I think once a year. I end up doing a hero dose. And I do it more of a touch in just to stay attuned, to try new strains that maybe I'll be offering to clients just so I can have a reference point for the experience. Because some are more heavy, some are more strong, some are more softer. So it's just a case of being able to speak intelligently about it. But I too am. I've kind of moved past some of the bigger work that I need to do and I understand, like the, the psychedelic space. Well, sure. Listen, it is a really cool experience and I, I mentioned to you earlier, I do want to try this other DMT X version in a. In a safe environment, because I've never worked with that before. But I do want to treat these experiences with reverence and use them for what their intention is, which is just to like, tune in, to help you recalibrate, to help you heal and then. And the real challenge is, are you inputting the lessons and the wisdom nuggets that you learned into practice, into your real life. And if you're doing that and you feel like you have control and a way to navigate society and the world around you in a much more beautiful way, then really it's just something to tune into. Just as a check in, like a sacrament once in a while.
[00:53:17] Speaker A: Yeah, sacrament, exactly. I'm surprised it's taken us that long to call it a sacrament, because that's 100. What I always say the other sacraments, and I'm not saying that lightly, they are 100. A sacrament.
[00:53:30] Speaker B: Yeah, I'm. I really believe in treating psychedelics with deep, deep, deep reverence and not, not to, you know, bring up religion or anything like that in any way, shape or form, because I'm I'm actually not a religious person, but, you know, I do believe in reverence around these things because they are showing you such a sacred space.
And, you know, it's. It's loved and it's.
It's a. It's an environment that is so nurturing and healing for the soul and holds everyone in. In such a beautiful state. And so even dark, darker experiences that sometimes people have. Sometimes people have really heavy journeys, it's usually there for a reason. It's usually teaching you something. And so the reverence factor is number one for me, Me.
[00:54:15] Speaker A: Amen.
And also on the note of religion, it's allowed me to explore the religions and at least see the potential of what these people wrote about. You know, I don't obviously, 100 believe in the Bible, but I get what they say now when they say God is love, you know what I mean? And other things that are in other texts.
Has that been a case for you? Like, have you explored any of the religions and been like, oh, maybe they're onto something?
[00:54:40] Speaker B: You know, I had such religious trauma from my childhood that I grew up anti religion. Pretty sure there wasn't a God, you know, had called out so many times, you know, if there was a God, hey, help me now. Now's a good time to help me. And didn't get a response. And so at least I thought at the time. And so for me, going into psychedelics, it was never an intention of mine to have a connection to God. I was just trying not to kill myself.
And the experience that I had in my. In my journey is the week that I worked with psychedelics.
For me, there's just no way. God isn't real now.
And I don't have. I wouldn't assign myself to any religion. I think what I experienced is beyond religion. Religion to me is like a very earthly, human construct.
God to me is so much greater and bigger than.
The Baha' I faith has a really interesting way of framing this. It's like. Like one lamp, many torches.
And I think, you know, the real version of God is this giant, massive, you know, if we want to just use like a human term, like a sun. And the religions are just, you know, trying to channel a tiny little piece of that, and they're not. They all have elements of truth to them, but they don't all have this, the. The whole picture. And what you experience, what you can experience, I should say, because everyone's experiences are different. But what you can experience when working psychedelics is the vastness of what God is. And Just how interconnected everything really is. And God is not a man or a guy in the sky. God is everything. Every atom, every fiber, every single thing. You know, it's the. The plant next to you and the bottle of water. And, you know, it's. It's absolutely everything. And. And the person and the people. Yeah. So, you know, there's a.
In the Christian faith, Jesus is God. And I always add, when I hear people say that we're all God, we're all fractals of God, we're all fragments of Him. And when we honor ourselves that way, and we honor others that way, everyone around you, the animals, the plants, the things, everyone is a fractal of God.
Your understanding of God, I think, is a little bit more closer to the truth. And that's where like, pure love can start, really coming in towards other people and a little bit more forgiveness for one another if we just treat everybody with the deep reverence that they deserve.
[00:57:02] Speaker A: Amen.
Profound words.
Now those are truly Christian words.
[00:57:07] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, exactly. No shame, no judgment. Just, you know, deep love.
[00:57:13] Speaker A: That's it. Deep love. Yep. Would you say there's no way that God isn't real?
[00:57:19] Speaker B: Oh, yeah. I mean, for me, again, a girl going into this experience completely anti religion, pretty sure there wasn't a God. God.
And coming out of it, just from the first week working with psychedelics, it wasn't a question anymore. It was a deep knowing in my bone. Every fiber of my being, there is a God. And, you know, there is another side. There's. There's a layer of the unseen, and it really has. It shifted a lot of things in my life. I have changed profoundly in the last couple of years, and I'm still very much on my own healing journey and my own discovery, just. Path of discovery. I'm just getting started. You know, I'm still very much a baby in this space and in my understanding and in my knowing, but I. One thing I. I know for sure is, is there is a God. And I'm convicted in that.
[00:58:13] Speaker A: Amen.
Yes.
Always the student.
[00:58:17] Speaker B: Always the student. I think that's the key with these things too, is. And. And also something to watch out for, you know, if you're assessing facilitators or people to work with, with, you know, is. Is just humility and. And understanding that we actually don't know anything about how these experiences will go or how they'll impact the person consuming them, et cetera. And to always have that heart of curiosity and openness, because everything is. It's like a Fingerprint. Every experience is. Is so different.
[00:58:46] Speaker A: Yeah, I like that. The heart of curiosity.
I'm gonna have to reuse that one.
[00:58:51] Speaker B: I think you absolutely should.
[00:58:55] Speaker A: The heart of curiosity.
I'll shout you out. I won't say those are my words. I'll say those are Amy's words. Yeah.
Wow. Okay.
Well, I think that's a good note to wrap this up at.
Stay curious.
Always the student, and on we go.
[00:59:14] Speaker B: That's right.
[00:59:15] Speaker A: Wonderful stuff.
[00:59:16] Speaker B: Yeah. Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciated getting a chance to talk about my favorite topic today.
[00:59:22] Speaker A: For sure. Yeah. You're on fire. You're saying some amazing stuff. Do you have anything else you want to say though, before we wrap it up?
[00:59:28] Speaker B: You know, I think I would just leave it with. To keep veterans and first responders at the forefront of your heart, you know, as you consider psychedelics and if you have it in your, in your ability to, you know, even donating as little as $5 a cup of coffee towards organizations like Vets or Heroic Heart, there's a lot of other organizations out there that collect funds as part of a non profit tax deductible, of course, so that vets can get treatment and fast. Because we know psychedelics don't. Sorry. We know pharmaceuticals, SSRIs, SNRIs, they often for the majority of people on them in our community, in the veteran community, it doesn't work. And so to help veterans in need that are really struggling, they need treatment. And treatment costs money. Money. And so if you can find it in your heart to give five bucks or more, you know, just to pitch in towards a veterans healing or a first responders healing, I just would so appreciate that and thank you for the space to say that.
[01:00:25] Speaker A: Awesome. Well, thank you, Amy.
You're a great person. I thank you for sharing your time, effort and wisdom with me and anybody that listens in the future.
[01:00:34] Speaker B: Thank you so much for having me and I'll catch you next time for sure.
[01:00:37] Speaker A: Keep up the awesome work.
[01:00:38] Speaker B: Thank you.
[01:00:38] Speaker A: Peace and love, everybody.
[01:00:39] Speaker B: Bye.
