Episode Transcript
[00:00:00] Speaker A: Jane Novak, thank you for joining me today.
[00:00:02] Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
[00:00:05] Speaker A: For sure.
So, yeah, getting this thing started, would you be able to give us a little bit about who you are and what you do? Exactly.
[00:00:15] Speaker B: Yes, I can do a little bit of that.
I'm a best selling author and I've been helping people to for over a decade at this point.
I work with highly sensitive people to help them empower themselves and I've been in self help industry, if you will, for quite a bit and always had a desire to help, to be around people that may want to feel better. So that's kind of in a nutshell, awesome.
[00:00:51] Speaker A: But now I know your subject matter on your YouTube channel goes a little bit deeper than that. You could say.
[00:00:59] Speaker B: That's why when you ask, can you tell us about yourself? I'm like, okay.
[00:01:07] Speaker A: Yeah, let's, let's dissect that. What is the self?
[00:01:09] Speaker B: You know, yeah, what is the self? Who am I?
[00:01:12] Speaker A: But yeah, really, how would you describe what your YouTube channel is all about then?
[00:01:18] Speaker B: That's such a good question.
I think YouTube channel is more of a reflection of like you said, the reflection that indeed there is either one self or no self.
We can go both ways about this and it's about releasing that burden of personal self, that belief that we've been carrying for so long, believing that we are indeed somebody. There's this entity taking care of things and therefore there's a lot of overwhelm, stress and so on. So my YouTube channel, I think it's more like my diaries, if you will, to. And it's not something that I usually advertise, advertise or anything like that where I go through my personal experience as well, post awakening, so to speak, relatively speaking, and the realization or no realization, no self realization, if you will.
[00:02:31] Speaker A: Now how did you start to see this way?
[00:02:34] Speaker B: I felt always that there was something, always were questions, always seeking that, that that's not it. This world as we see it, just really not something as it is because it really didn't make sense. And I also, when I work with highly sensitive people because I was one myself as an empath and we're just like highly attuned to everything and also pick up different vibrations and frequencies, if you will.
So things never made sense for me because I felt different, quite a rebel, but also at the same time quite on a seeking journey, believing somewhere deep inside that there is love and peace, that that's all that is. But somehow I was seeking for it. So there was a process of seeking towards that And I would say three years ago I.
I ended my marriage. It was unhealthy marriage and it was kind of a pivotal point in my life where I had this awakening. I also had quite challenges, you know, quite a few challenges in my life.
I just eye opening experience that wait a minute, we're not or I'm not who I thought I was or you know the first thing that, that, that first glimpse was we don't choose our thoughts. And like yeah, we don't choose our thoughts. Wait a minute. It's true. Let's test it out. It's true.
So who am I? Who are we? What are we doing here?
What is all of this? So but it felt very, I didn't have any heavy background to kind of hold my opening towards it I feel. So it wasn't like long term seeking and so on and it was just felt more organic, kind of gradually getting to that space place there's no place really. But this realization that indeed there's no self. So things kind of started rolling from that point and when I had to deal with a lot more challenges down the road, all of these challenges kind of forced me to keep looking deeper and deeper if you will, on the story level, kind of unpeeling these layers over and over.
And then there was a moment, what we call in radical non duality community, like dropping off the self or dropping of the me and I. And I wouldn't say it was like a moment. It was just like obviousness that there is no limited entity controlling anything anywhere. So that was quite obvious. And there was like a little bit more establishment process seeing that more and more. Like that's indeed that's the case.
[00:05:42] Speaker A: Well, thank you for sharing that.
I can't tell you how many people I speak to come to this realization through a breakup.
And it's not necessarily like a breakup with a person, a lot of times it is. But it's a breakup with a way of life. Something that we identified with for a very long time. And then all of a sudden it comes crashing down and then you're left with well now what if I wasn't that?
Who am I now?
So it seems like life has a way of working itself out in that way of showing you.
Showing you the way, right?
[00:06:15] Speaker B: Absolutely. I was specifically, I was in a narcissistic marriage. So that was a little bit more specific. And I know a lot of people also who are listening may be going through something like that. And that's not the way that universe showing you you have to get out yeah. And really start taking care of yourself and looking within, you know?
[00:06:37] Speaker A: Yeah, yeah, now I know exactly what you're saying. But just, you know, for the sake of conversation here, what do you mean by there is nobody here? There's no independent entity. There's no Jane. There's no self. Right. Because for anyone listening that doesn't know any better, they're watching us. They're like, what are these two crazy people talking about?
I see two people on the screen. So what does that mean?
[00:07:06] Speaker B: Yeah, it definitely doesn't mean that there are no other bodies or other.
You know, we can call them individuals. And that's how it. It's the appearance of. Of the. We call it consciousness or awareness or nothingness or freedom itself kind of multiplying into the appearance that there are other people.
When I say no self is that the suffering comes from this notion and belief and energetically, kind of like wired contraction and belief that there is indeed I'm in charge of my life.
And that's where the problem, so to speak, begins. Because there is this identification that I am doing this and I am. Is very limited, vulnerable. That's usually a belief. Right. I'm very small. The world is so big.
I'm very vulnerable. I have to make sure I get my ducks in a row.
So I can kind of control certain things. And, you know, most people would agree that they can control certain things, but not others.
Okay, let's say we can't control the rain. Like, we can all agree that the weather is uncontrollable, but they believe they can control other things.
And if indeed they could control other things, would they be able to control. Control everything? You know, so there's no entity, separate entity, that is in charge of things, so to speak. But it's happening on its own. It's happening as. As a appearance of progression and unfolding, but there is no self taking responsibility. That's a belief. That's. That's kind of an illusion part of all of this. The illusion is not that I'm speaking to Gary, and I respect Gary, and we have beautif conversation. Right. It's not to deny all of that, but it's. It's just saying that Jane is here, Gary is there, and Jane has to protect herself. And Jane has to say things like, it's already happening. These words are kind of flooding around, and they're like, I'm not reading them. I'm not thinking about them. There's no I.
That is the small separate eye that's trying to micromanage everything. And usually that's a lot of.
A lot of suffering comes from separation. Believing that it's indeed. So.
[00:09:42] Speaker A: I think all suffering comes from separation.
[00:09:45] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely.
Right, Yeah. I mean you can have like a physical pain we can call suffering might not necessarily come from you feeling separate. It's just pain appearing as pain at this point, you know, but the psychological suffering, I would say all psychological suffering is because there's something is lacking at this moment. Something is missing at this moment. And that's usually where all the story creation and storytelling begins.
[00:10:19] Speaker A: Yeah.
In Buddhism they have the idea of. And it's probably a lot more.
It's probably better explained in the sutras, but I'll try and explain it here. There's two kinds of suffering and there's the kind that you described as physical pain. Things that just seem to happen to us.
And then there's the resistance that we create, which is another kind of suffering.
So I think we're talking about here is the resistance to the goings on of our life that is completely eradicated once one sees Anatta, once one sees no self and just sees it all as a happening.
[00:10:55] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Because it's, it's already the case. It's already happening. So we add on this kind of like the, the belief, the limitation, if you will, but worth adding that even that limitation, even that belief appears as this, as whatever we want to call it. Right. So it just takes the shape of so called separation.
And the awakening part is seeing that is indeed there is no separation. There's nothing is lacking. There is no sense of lack of any kind.
[00:11:32] Speaker A: Well, would you say it's the case of a simultaneousness of recognizing no separation, but also the play of separation that is happening?
[00:11:41] Speaker B: Absolutely. That's so beautifully said. I love that. Yes. Because we, we label things wrong and right, bad and good, and that's what the mind kind of loves to do. And when you see it's all as what appears in this immediacy, if you will, you know, it's immediate. It's not. There's no timeline. There's apparent timeline, of course, but no timeline. In a way, it's all just is, you know, if it appears as separation, then it appears as separation at this point.
[00:12:14] Speaker A: Yeah. It all just is.
[00:12:17] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:12:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
More than just an idea actually swallowing that ultimate presence, the isness.
The mind doesn't compute. It will try, that's for sure. But yeah, like actually sitting with that and understanding that at an energetic level, at a somatic level, at a just at a Just experiential level, just here and now. It's miraculous. That's a word that came to my mind. It's like truly miraculous and you can't put it into words. It goes beyond duality. Non duality. It goes beyond any sort of rationale or narrative that the mind will try and try and describe it with. It's the here and now, baby. Yeah, that's it.
[00:13:10] Speaker B: Oh, you're absolutely right. It will try. It will fight. It will try to dissect and try to intellectually come up with some sort of other label or I'm a truth seeker now or something like that. You know, let's digest it more. But it's just. Yep, it's it. But again, it's all what's happening, you know, that's not wrong or right. And indeed it's. It's. It's not just intellectual understanding, which a lot of people may just like kind of make sense, you know, but it's that energetic resonance, I would say, that cannot be translated into words.
It's just that isness what you're talking about. It's.
That's why a lot of people and in a lot of teachings it was always used either. Either like a poetry.
[00:13:57] Speaker A: Right.
[00:13:57] Speaker B: Because it's hard to put into words and actually express, explain what it is because it's. It's unexplainable.
This doesn't have qualities how we, you know, objective qualities, how we used to describing things.
[00:14:14] Speaker A: Beyond concept.
[00:14:16] Speaker B: Absolutely. Yeah.
It crashes all the concepts. It. It just.
It's the death to all concepts, really.
[00:14:28] Speaker A: And that's the joke is we're on here on a podcast talking about it.
[00:14:35] Speaker B: Absolutely.
[00:14:36] Speaker A: I mean, that's what I like to emphasize in my talks is these words only go so far. Like if somebody is too attached to me and what I'm saying, I try to dispel that. I try to like use the words to turn them on themselves. And I think that is the highest service of a teacher or pure teaching is it's like almost like transmutating the words and the concept to non concept. That's Zen Kohans, pretty much what they do.
Yeah, that's the tricky play that we play on here. It's like making sure to use the words effectively to make sure that people don't get attached to the words too much. You know what I'm getting at here?
[00:15:16] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, exactly.
[00:15:18] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:15:19] Speaker B: And sometimes it could go also the other way. Like you're trying to be too careful with words or like, you know, and it's like, well, you know, even if you and I sit down and talk about tea or coffee or whatever, you know where that's going to be it.
That's going to be it. It's going to be so full and complete. And I think even in that conversation, the energetic resonance will be there without even touching upon certain words, if you will.
[00:15:49] Speaker A: Yeah, it's a good point.
[00:15:51] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:15:52] Speaker A: What came up for me is like the dance.
There's a dance in there. You have to stay fluid. Right. And in that fluidity is freedom. You can't be the ardent radical, non dualist and afraid to have fun.
And on the other side of the spectrum, it's like also you can't be too involved in the material in the world. It's like middle way. You're going to play both sides, I feel.
And again, that's what I think makes a good teacher is they're, they're realized, they have this understanding, but they're also in the world. In the world and not of it, you know.
[00:16:29] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. I feel like a lot of people, there's a, there's a misconception that they feel they need to abandon certain, you know, their, their life. Because to be honest. Yes. When you have this realization, there's a moment of grief, there's a moment of like, okay, this is all crazy. It's not even real. And you know, you go through that. I would say maybe not everyone, but most people will go through that.
And.
But there's also misconception that you have to now denounce everything that is happening. Let's say I have children, I have life, I have things to take care of. It's it. Nobody canceled that. That's, that's what is, you know. And I actually made the video recently talking about it like non duality is your life.
It's not, you know, creating certain labels that I'm now spiritual. I have to denounce that at that. No, it's, it's, I would say after realization, the next step is fully embodying then going, so to speak, back into the world. But from my experience is that when you go back into the world, you actually more relaxed, you, you're more like. I talk a lot about nervous system. Your nervous system is not jumpy anymore. You're dealing with circumstances a lot easier because there's no agenda, there is no certain expectation and there's no like this reactivity pattern that was coming from separation.
[00:17:57] Speaker A: Well said.
No agenda, no agenda.
[00:18:01] Speaker B: It's separating and it's so liberating. But you also have.
You also notice how you change. Like, certain boundaries may become stronger. Certain way you address things will change as well. And it's. I would just say wide. Also, when you don't have this agenda, it's more exciting because it can surprise you. In a good way.
Yeah, definitely.
[00:18:27] Speaker A: Serendipitous.
[00:18:29] Speaker B: Mm.
Yeah.
[00:18:31] Speaker A: Now, I think that's what matters. If anything matters in this whole thing, in this whole realm, it's how we embody this realization and bring it into the world.
Because it does change people. I've noticed a correlation. Not exactly a causation, but there's a correlation between realization and one's embodiment, one's expression as the character.
And I think it does drastically change people. Not a guarantee, like I said, but, yeah, definitely a warranty.
There's definitely the potential there.
[00:19:04] Speaker B: Of course.
[00:19:05] Speaker A: Now let me ask you this. How have you changed from your own, you know, observation of yourself? How have you changed? How has Jane changed from this realization in the world?
[00:19:16] Speaker B: I think there was a realization that there was never a Jane that was structured a certain way.
It's like you said, it's a dance. It's ever flowing wave, you know, and merging in another wave and merging again. So it's always fresh and new.
So there's no more stagnant view of how I'm supposed to be or having these expectations of myself.
Also a deeper sense of peace and contentment, meaning, even things may not go. May not feel as, like. Okay, because before, like, with the separation, we chase pleasure and we try to run away from pain. And it's like this constant cycles, right? Over and over. And when you're done running and exhausted yourself, so when that finally is seen, the veil is lifted.
There is understanding that what is, is complete and nothing needs to be added. So in those moments when they're like, you know, maybe not so exciting moments, there's still this remembrance of completeness, of this moment. So it's. It's already, like. It's already full. It's already complete. And if you sort of know that, then there is no energetic charge to it, if you will, you know, so. And also, like you were talking about synchronicities and things kind of flowing easier.
Definitely. You lose people, certain people on this path, kind of not gonna fit in. And sometimes it can be painful. Absolutely. But you also realize that's.
That's what's happening. And you don't label it as wrong.
You don't try to fix it. You don't try to, you know, make something out of that. And also, I would say just.
There was a book called. Something was coming to me recently, the Seed of the Soul. I don't know. Gary Zukoff, I think he wrote the book and I read it long time ago, but the. The name of it really stood out to me. The Seed of the Soul. It almost feels like you are home where you're supposed to be sitting, you know, and there is no desire of, like, fear of missing out being somewhere else. You're just sitting and you're just relaxed and you.
You allow your being, sort everything out.
Like, your being will be the filter of what's supposed to be in your life, what's not supposed to be, how it's supposed to be. Because there's no more using that energy, wasting energy, I would say, on trying to figure things out.
And another thing, personally, because everyone could be so different, because I said there's a surprise element that you might not realize that I. My life became more busier, like actually more action oriented. And I know some people might slow down if it's the other way around, or they might just, like, sit on a couch and enjoy it every day. I don't know. It could be so many different ways, but as of recently, I became even more active and I'm like, okay, that's what's happening. So it's quite interesting, you know, and it changes all the time.
Just being open to it, to life, as every day is a different gift.
And you really see it as a gift. Indeed.
[00:23:01] Speaker A: Well spoken.
I feel that, yeah. I think it's the difference between entropy and momentum.
I sense momentum, right. And I sense magic also in that momentum.
This subtle layer of magic in all of the goings on. Even when shit sucks.
Let's be honest, sometimes shit sucks. But even then, there is the silver lining. I feel like I was sick a few weeks ago and it sucked, but there was still that essence of, well, I'm just gonna be here and be sick, right? I'm just gonna see what it is to be sick, a sick human being and suffer, and there's nothing I can do.
[00:23:41] Speaker B: You're not resisting anymore, right? That's.
[00:23:43] Speaker A: Yeah, exactly. That's the. Again, that's the big difference that Buddha talked about is this, like, no resistance to the process and the goings on. That's huge. It really is.
Yeah.
[00:23:54] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it's Krishna Morty who said, my secret is that I say yes to everything. Or was it Ramana Maharshi? I forgot. Don't quote me on that. Who said that. But my Secret is that I say yes to everything what arises.
Not necessarily yes to behaviors that might be, you know, deemed inappropriate or so, but just like, not from a standpoint of not resisting.
Wishing it to be different at the moment.
Yeah.
[00:24:26] Speaker A: And I think you also explained it well, how it's not apathy, it's not nihilism necessarily. It could be, but I also notice a correlation with people finding this essence of volition in one's action and creativity.
Right.
Some kind of creative artistic expression, I find comes along with this dance along with this flow.
[00:24:49] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:24:50] Speaker A: I think that's what we are at a deep level is we're creators.
[00:24:53] Speaker B: We are just even like, look at when we're younger or young children, there's no, like, they. They do one thing and there's not thinking about. They move to the next thing and there is no, like, okay, did I do this right? Did I do this correct? Let me think about before moving like, it's just a flow. It's a flow without conceptual.
Conceptually taking like this heavy responsibility for it. And creativity can only thrive if there is no responsibility and no agenda, you.
[00:25:22] Speaker A: Know, and also no expectation of reward.
[00:25:27] Speaker B: Oh, yes, that's. That's what's. But we live in a society that, you know, it's. It's all about rewards. Right. Like, if you behave well, we're going to reward you. If not, we're going to punish you. So that's basic concept of social media, how it's based on too like it's everywhere.
[00:25:44] Speaker A: Yeah, I know.
Yeah.
It's also good to recognize the rewards come and go. The fruits of our labor definitely come and go. Like, I'm getting fruits from doing this right now, for sure. But I'm not doing it for the fruits. And that's the big difference.
I'm just doing it.
I'm just. Just here. Just here hanging out, honestly. And. Yeah. So it's also not pushing away the fruits and being a complete ascetic living in the cave, you know, I don't want anything out of the world. It's not that either.
[00:26:13] Speaker B: Absolutely. It's that embodiment, like you said. It's just.
You understand that what kind of game you're playing. You understand that it's a game, but nevertheless, you're playing that game. You're not.
You're not above, you're not below this game. You're just participating, you know, we are the game. We are the game. Exactly.
[00:26:34] Speaker A: Yeah.
Yeah.
This powerful stuff.
Yeah. Again, that's what I feel comes from this, is that essence of Play. And I hear that from so many people as well.
Right. This essence of play. Game, like quality, childlike innocence.
Many different labels. We have used many different labels in many different ways to try to pinpoint this. This essence.
And, yeah, I mean, I think it comes down to flow. I like flow, momentum.
You're just. You're in the. You're in the river of life. Right. The dow. The way there's something like you're with. I sense, like I'm with something I am in. And of the river of life I am in and of the game.
When. Before, I was trying to create my own game.
[00:27:31] Speaker B: Right.
[00:27:31] Speaker A: I was trying to create my own way.
[00:27:32] Speaker B: Game are two different things. Yeah.
Sorry, can you say, like, believing you and a game are two different things? That's. That's where we're in separation, you know.
[00:27:42] Speaker A: Yeah. That's the big difference. Mm. And then one can start to play, and however the game turns out, it's not up to us.
[00:27:51] Speaker B: Oh, absolutely. It's like you said, it's.
You can call it anything you want. It's nothing being everything. It's everything. There is no. We're not leaving out bad or good parts, because it's really just a conceptual thing that we're playing. Putting labels and, you know, comes from certain morals and so on, and it helps us to play this game, but it's. It's truly everything.
And there is nothing.
Something outside of what is.
And this is it. Like, that really blows the mind, literally, because the mind cannot.
The mind leaves the story itself, you know.
[00:28:39] Speaker A: Yeah. This is it.
Now, obviously, I fully understand what you're saying, reviving here.
You know, we're going back and forth. We're flowing.
Uh, but I like to ask from somebody that has no idea what we're talking about, Right? Like, somebody is a third party. The audience that's tuning in now, they might say, well, how do I get this, per se? How do I see the same way that Jane and Gary are seeing and describing, you know, do you have some sort of prescription, some. Some sort of ways and modalities to be able to see this?
[00:29:16] Speaker B: Well, I hear what you're saying, that definitely. And I've been there myself, so to speak.
When there is a belief that whoever is watching is different from Jane and Gary and there is, like, a destination point, that something needs to be done, or you have to get that instead, I would say you are it fully and completely. And even if it veils the view right now, this is it. This is all that is now. I approach this a Little bit differently. This is the, the baseline, this is the truth. Right.
However, when I was on this process, if you will, there's nothing like first, I just want to say there's nothing that needs, you don't have to be qualified to be there to do this or it's, it's a false misconception.
And however, one thing that I would ask right now, go ahead and try to point to yourself, to identify myself and kind of go deeper and deeper in that and maybe you'll, you'll touch first. Sensations of your body can close your eyes and okay, what, what are these sensations? What are they made of?
And go deeper and deeper and kind of spiral as far as you want to try to find you and keep going and going and going and keep trying to find you is there, you there.
And what a lot of people notice with this, if you want to call it exercise, is that there's no pointing to specific you there. You might feel sensations, bodily functions, contractions.
Is that you?
Is there a thought arises? Is that you? Or is just a thought arising?
Is there an entity? Can you find an entity? So keep going and going and going and find that entity.
There's nobody there.
That's the biggest joke.
[00:31:32] Speaker A: Yeah, it takes a little bit of dissection, a little bit of self inquiry.
[00:31:37] Speaker B: As you said, openness. It's, it's that openness that maybe somebody's listening and like it might be nodding their head, they might be skeptical, but there's like, still makes sense, you know, so there's just, and I believe whoever's listening to this, probably they, there's already some part of opening there, otherwise they wouldn't be listening to this. I, you know, it's not something, you're not going to get anything from it in a way.
So.
[00:32:10] Speaker A: Well, one would say if you ask that question, where am I? Who am I?
Most people would probably be like, I'm right here, I'm in here.
[00:32:19] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:32:20] Speaker A: Then from there you'd have to ask the question, well then what is right here made out of?
Is this disconnected from the moment?
Are you in here? And then that's out there. With enough dissection, we don't have to do it right now, but with enough looking, you'll be able to see that what this, you, this entity that you think is separate from the world is connected to everything. I mean you can dissect that at an atomic level, right? At a, at a level that is like minuscule. Very. What is that?
[00:32:53] Speaker B: What's the word I'm looking for?
[00:32:54] Speaker A: Is Atomic, subatomic. I guess you can see that there's nothing.
There's nothing separating this entity that you think you are from the whole world. Everything is interconnected. And even though there may seem like there's distance between me and you right now, Jane, literal distance, it's not true. We're actually connected.
Just because there's a certain amount of air and space.
Well, that's still. Like, we're still in the same soup.
[00:33:20] Speaker B: Absolutely. And there's only the. It's just become so apparent.
And whoever's watching you can make experiment over and over. Like, just. I think you have to know it for yourself, so to speak. So make that experiment over and over. Because even the air, the particles of air that we breathe, it's all interconnected, even on physiological. Right. Level. And then you break it down. Down even more so.
And I mean, it's just quite obvious. But we fell for this lie.
[00:33:58] Speaker A: Well, we were conditioned into the lie.
[00:34:00] Speaker B: Yeah, but think about it. That's what we've been told.
Right.
And when the baby is born, the newborn, there is no conceptualized self yet.
And then when parents tell you, your name is Jane, I'm your mom, and this is your dad. And so the separation begins. The understanding that, oh, I'm this. My own self. Entity that I have to take care of, that I have to make it work while not realizing this is, you know, I'm hearing your words right now. The hearing is taking place here.
And even though it seems like your words are coming out of there.
[00:34:43] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:34:43] Speaker B: You know.
[00:34:45] Speaker A: Yep. It goes deep.
[00:34:47] Speaker B: Yeah. And I think it's good we talk about that because sometimes it's just when you. When I started hearing that, like, the first thing was like, you don't choose your thoughts. Wait a minute.
Indeed. They just arise, they just appear.
Like, okay, so let's dive in deeper.
[00:35:08] Speaker A: And as you said, once you see it, you don't unsee it.
[00:35:10] Speaker B: Oh, God.
[00:35:11] Speaker A: It's actually obvious. Beyond obvious.
[00:35:13] Speaker B: Oh, God, no. There's no way back.
And it's probably a good thing, but at the beginning, it seems like, you know, you wish you were ignorant.
[00:35:24] Speaker A: Yeah, Right. Ignorance is bliss.
[00:35:25] Speaker B: It is bliss. You know, that's. That's what they say, but it's kind of a bliss that now that I kind of look back, if you will, would I undo it?
Not in a million years, you know.
[00:35:43] Speaker A: Yeah. It's a false bliss.
[00:35:44] Speaker B: It wasn't easy at the beginning, as you know it. Like, breaking that illusion.
[00:35:51] Speaker A: It'S worth it.
Yeah, I think it is.
[00:35:54] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:35:55] Speaker A: Yeah.
It's difference between living a lie or living in truth? Honestly?
[00:36:02] Speaker B: Yes, Both. Also, what is appearing truth, appearing as lie?
You know, there's nothing right or wrong about that, but there's definitely a level of relief that you feel on so many levels.
And again, you understand there is no time as well. You know, that's quite obvious too.
[00:36:36] Speaker A: That's a big one.
No time, no space.
[00:36:40] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah.
[00:36:41] Speaker A: Just here and now. Those may seem like spiritual cliches, but it actually is the truth. Time isn't real and space isn't real. They're all just these giant concepts that we built up.
[00:36:53] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's just. It's always this. It's always this.
Always this. It's like no matter what you do, try again. Test it out yourself.
Don't believe what we say here. Test it out for yourself.
Yeah.
[00:37:12] Speaker A: Always this. Before we were born, after we died.
[00:37:16] Speaker B: It'S always this and born, birth and death. It's also a concept. It's a story.
[00:37:21] Speaker A: It's like, oh, that's a big one.
[00:37:22] Speaker B: Somebody. What? Think about it. Somebody told you you were born.
You literally believed somebody. You were born, but hearsay.
[00:37:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:37:31] Speaker B: Do you remember being born?
[00:37:34] Speaker A: I mean, that's a good point. Do you remember being born?
[00:37:37] Speaker B: I mean, they just.
[00:37:38] Speaker A: None of us remember being born.
[00:37:39] Speaker B: They just literally tell you you were born at this time and you're like, oh, okay.
[00:37:46] Speaker A: That'S interesting.
[00:37:47] Speaker B: And we're just like.
[00:37:48] Speaker A: I've never heard anyone put it that way. Do you remember being born?
No.
Damn.
[00:37:59] Speaker B: Death. Because we see a dead body. But dead body and death are two different things, right?
[00:38:04] Speaker A: Like, ooh.
[00:38:06] Speaker B: We just look at the body and that's it. And again. And we.
We call it death.
[00:38:16] Speaker A: Damn.
Okay.
Yeah. That's heavy stuff.
[00:38:21] Speaker B: Yeah. It really.
It really messes with your mind. But it's kind of a good thing because it really, like.
[00:38:32] Speaker A: It'S the truth, though. I feel it, because that is the.
I mean, that's like the highest form of control, or the highest form of fear maybe is our inevitable demise. It's all in the back of our heads. And if you still believe yourself to be. To be real, you could say it's always there. And it's always controlling you in one way or the other throughout all of your actions, all of your endeavors. It's based upon death. I know that sounds like. That sounds dark and heavy, but it's like we live in a world that is obsessed, low key. We don't really talk about it, but everyone's obsessed with surviving, right?
[00:39:12] Speaker B: Yes.
[00:39:12] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:39:13] Speaker B: And I'm glad you brought it up. Because fear is the type of control and if somebody fears the impermanence and the biggest fear is the fear of disappearance.
There's a belief that at some point I'll disappear. So that fear drives all of the other fears.
Yeah, that. But that's the base fear. Fear of death and fear of disappearance.
Nobody wants to talk about that.
[00:39:40] Speaker A: Of course I know. Right. That's a good point. Is that's the foundation. So it's the foundation of I'm gonna disappear.
And then there's all the mini disappearances that happen in our life that are, you know, they're on top of that foundation of me disappearing. It's like, well, I don't want this person to disappear, this thing that I like or this way of life.
[00:40:02] Speaker B: Right, absolutely. I mean, think about it. We go through mini death all the time.
You go to many, through many death. When you go to sleep, into a deep sleep. Because there's no I, there's no me, you know, so.
And death became like this concept, like you said, fear mongering concept and so on, the impermanence and. But we have, like you said, death could be a breakup, is a death. It's a death, you know, form of death. And we go through it as well.
Yes. It's a very big concept that you're right. They are controlling these fears.
[00:40:49] Speaker A: Yeah. And the miracle of it all is, is there's nothing to disappear. There is nothing that could ever disappear.
[00:40:57] Speaker B: Exactly. Because it's nothing. How can nothing appear like or disappear?
It apparently appears, disappears.
But if it's already nothing and nothing. I don't, I don't mean to, you know, go into nihilistic approach or like nothing. It's also everything. It's that, that's what is. We just call it nothing because it doesn't have objective qualities. I just want to point that out. Because nothing, it's. In our society, nothing is not like a positive thing, you know?
[00:41:31] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:41:32] Speaker B: You want to be somebody. We want to be something. We want to add on. We want to feel full. Not realizing that nothing is already full.
And when there's this emptiness, then it can be filled with anything.
[00:41:49] Speaker A: That's the word I was going to use. I'm pretty sure you read my mind. I was going to say emptiness.
Yeah, that's what it is, it's emptiness. So emptiness is different from nothing because nothing is like void. Right. That's kind of what we picture. It's like, oh, there's just nothing. It's actually unpicturable. Emptiness is like, I feel, is like a cup that is empty. And there. There's still like. There's something there. Right. There is like the. The essence of the cup.
But there's nothing in the cup.
So it's different than nothing. I hope I'm making sense here. It's almost like you can fill the cup with whatever you want.
You picking up what I'm putting down?
[00:42:26] Speaker B: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it doesn't have any limitations, this. This emptiness. Doesn't it. It's truly so free that it can't be anything good or bad. That's the whole idea of freedom.
We can't label freedom as something that can only appear a certain way.
But when this is realized, so to speak, there. Is that what people call nothing? No, you actually feel the.
That's the only substance, if you will.
That's the only what is. You know, and it's. It's so.
It's so hard to put into words. It's not.
It's not nothing in the sense that it's.
Yeah. We're going to be stuck in words here probably. But I think you. Of course, what I mean.
Yes, again, in non duality, people don't like the word nothing to a lot of people. Like it pushes them away. And only Small circle in non duality uses nothing as everything. You know, like more radical. Tiny Parsons, Jim Newman, you know about that. And I would say it's nothing and everything.
So it's. It's so magical. I would say that. And so mysterious that you can't even describe it.
[00:43:48] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:43:49] Speaker B: It's not constant mystery, emptiness, but it's like emptiness and everything all in one.
[00:43:55] Speaker A: Yep.
That's that yin and yang right there. It's the dance.
[00:43:59] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:44:00] Speaker A: The ever unfolding mystery of the moment.
[00:44:03] Speaker B: Mm.
And I think what I notice is that once you stop really trying to understand what it is and live it.
Just live.
Because that's. That's already.
It's already you. This whole universe is you. It's the separation we believe. I am in the universe.
Vulnerable, small. I gotta make my ends meet.
But with this realization, there is also a sense. And that's the truth. I am the universe.
And that is. Cannot be put in words. It's so massive if you. It's like it has so much.
[00:44:45] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:44:46] Speaker B: Weight at the same time, you know? Good. Kind of. Yeah. Perception.
[00:44:52] Speaker A: Yeah. When you put it that way, that you are the universe, literally. It's more than just saying actually knowing at a deep level that we actually are the universe. There's all the Atoms that are in us.
All the things that are in us that you think you are. It's. It is from this substratum of what we're in, in and of. And swallowing that pill is just so. Wow. It's just so awe inspiring, man.
It's.
Yeah. It's truly a miracle to realize that, that you are of this infinite universe playing simultaneously as this finite little being on earth.
[00:45:37] Speaker B: Right.
[00:45:37] Speaker A: It's kind of funny.
[00:45:39] Speaker B: Right? Right, Absolutely. And it's happening on its own.
So there is no more like, you know, do I go left, do I go right? You still, these decisions will arise, but it's all. There's trust. There's a deep trust that it's already happening as it's happening. So there is no more feeling overwhelmed about or ashamed of your choices and so on, you know, or regret. These are the heavy, I would say obstacles if you will, that are keeping a lot of people in kind of like limitation.
But that, that disappears. That. Because that's all that is, you know, as it unfolds. That's, that's how it is. There's no more, you know, labeling it.
[00:46:30] Speaker A: Yep.
There's no more condemnation.
[00:46:33] Speaker B: Yeah. Yeah. You, you free. You, you truly free. Even though you can feel certain way the I, I don't want to say that difficult emotions not going to arise.
They will arise. There's still sadness that might arise, anger may arise, but there's no more self judgment towards that as well. And you just see them for what it is. Just like this immediacy arising.
And what I noticed, they don't arise as often anymore and they dissipate pretty quickly because they're seen for what they are. There's no story building out of that. There's no more poor me out of that or victim story based or like any kind of stories that can keep you small and limited, you know.
[00:47:21] Speaker A: Exactly.
Yeah.
That's the big difference again is once you do realize you are, you are of this creation, one does start to create different cycles. Naturally there is this natural essence toward just this smoother life, honestly, toward less resistance toward peace.
That is what comes about I feel is the more mature responsiveness we could say out of that immediate arising. It's yeah. Just less self created suffering and that's huge.
[00:47:56] Speaker B: Yes, absolutely. And other people quantum, you know too. Yes, it is. Absolutely.
And. But you're not jumping anywhere you've already, already been that you just kind of taking off the veil and seeing it. That's, that's, that's indeed so.
[00:48:14] Speaker A: Mm.
Yeah.
It's Interesting, right? To see that the default is actually.
It is actually peace. Because we run on in this materialistic culture how we've conditioned. The default is chaos, the default is entropy. The default is dog eat dog. But contrary to popular belief, the default of our being is this peace oriented experience.
Right. So when we become the creator, naturally what is created is a good experience, you know.
[00:48:49] Speaker B: Absolutely.
I love that you said that. You know, I. Again, when we take a nervous system, I always say safety is your baseline.
Nervous system loves the safety piece as your baseline. And indeed our nervous system natural way of being is peace. That's. That's the default, you know, and we have the mechanisms of fight or flight. When let's say there's bear running or like we need to evacuate or whatever it will, it's happening on its own, you know. So we have these defense mechanisms, but we are not meant to use them at all times for psychological.
[00:49:28] Speaker A: Exactly.
[00:49:29] Speaker B: That's where the problem is.
[00:49:30] Speaker A: Yeah.
[00:49:31] Speaker B: So I love how you said pieces are default. I would add safeties are default nature. So feeling safe, at peace.
That's who we are.
[00:49:44] Speaker A: I feel it.
I feel very at peace talking to you, Jane.
I thank you for reminding me today.
[00:49:54] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:49:56] Speaker A: That's how I see all these conversations that I do. They're just reminders for me and potentially anybody listening in the future.
So. Yeah, I thank you. I think we can probably start to wrap it up. I mean we've said, I think everything we need to say in that regard. That's the thing. We could go on and on and on and then we can also say nothing at the same time. It's somewhat equal in that regard.
But yeah. Do you have anything else that you want to get off your chest before we wrap this up?
[00:50:25] Speaker B: Nothing and everything.
[00:50:28] Speaker A: There it is.
[00:50:28] Speaker B: Yeah.
[00:50:31] Speaker A: Well, thank you, Jane. Keep up the good work. I really appreciate you coming on here things. An awesome talk.
[00:50:37] Speaker B: Thank you.
[00:50:38] Speaker A: I bow to you.
[00:50:39] Speaker B: Thank you for having me.
[00:50:40] Speaker A: Peace and love.
[00:50:41] Speaker B: It was really a pleasure.
[00:50:44] Speaker A: Peace and love, everybody.
[00:50:45] Speaker B: Bye.
